ESPN Soccernet - Correspondents - Stoke City

Posted by James Whittaker on 02/22/2011

I'll obviously be writing a match report after the event but I thought I would just set the scene for Wednesday's game against Arsenal in anticipation of the aftermath.

I’ve enjoyed writing on here for the last year or so and have had great conversations and banter with teams’ fans up and down the country apart from one, Arsenal's. As some of you might know, I’m also on twitter and the theme continues on there as the dozen or so people on my blocked list are ALL Arsenal fans?

I’ve learnt that fans of Wednesday’s opposition don’t take well to home truths being pointed out and my coverage of the Ramsey incident and subsequent pieces have been met with little more than ignorance and abuse. That’s not to say that ALL Arsenal fans have been like that, thankfully there were a few that having read the points I made were able to discuss and debate without the need to resort to insults and name calling.

The fact is that the behaviour of Arsenal management and players since our time in the Premier League has been nothing short of disgraceful. Ever since that first meeting at the Britannia, both have seen fit to drag our name through the mud at every given opportunity. The main culprit has been Mr Wenger, who has ruthlessly pursued a personal vendetta against the club and Shawcross and has now even taken to making up incidents in a blatant attempt to discredit a player whose only crime was being the other party in an unfortunate 50/50 challenge with a fellow professional.

Stoke are a rugby team he says, we are bullies, we foul and injure players at will… The statistics to date this season and indeed before however, tell a very different story.

Arsene's Angels…©d.yimg.com

Arsenal sit 3rd from bottom in the Disciplinary table with 6 red cards, Stoke are comfortably in the middle with only 2 red cards, above the other media favourites who ‘play the right way’, Bolton. Indeed, prior to the Ramsey incident in the previous 3 meetings last season not one Stoke player had received a caution against Arsenal.

Stoke have committed the third fewest fouls in the league too, and considering we only have the ball about 40% of the time I’d say that’s a pretty commendable statistic.

That said, I fear fact and statistic will fly out of the window of reason come Wednesday night as the media and the plastic flag waving Arsenal fans will simply be fuelled by lazy journalism, hearsay and the hypocritical rants of their Manager. I only hope and pray that the referee, Mr Peter Walton (the very same referee from ‘that’ game) is strong enough to manage the game that actually unfolds in front of him and not listen to any hype surrounding it.

I’m glad to hear that neither manager, to both their credits, will be conducting a press conference, I hope this gesture serves as a reminder to all that we are here to enjoy a game of football, not to continue a baseless and unfair witch hunt.

To that end, I will not be publishing any abusive posts, nor those discussing previous meetings unless they are pertinent to what happened in this actual game. If you want to know my thoughts and feelings on Shawcross, the ‘incident’ and various shades of grey in-between then look back at my previous articles when it was debated to death.

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Comments

Posted by Mark Turner (@mightypotter71) on 02/22/2011

Well said, a good bit of writing there mate... Hopefully it will be a good game Wednesday and of course the result will be a good one, 2-1 to the Mighty Potters !!!

Mark.

Editor Comment - Cheers Mark, let's hope so though I fear we won't come away with anything... It would be nice if everyone was just talking about the game afterwards too and nothing else.

Posted by Sad Patriot on 02/22/2011

Good write-up. Also good you wear your heart on your sleeve. Methinks your statistics best reflect the quality of officiating in the Premiership. I watch at least 80% of ALL EPL games and it is crystal clear that no team gets more fouled than Arsenal. Unless you are taking the mick, Arsenal is one of (if not the) cleanest playing team in England. It is the perversion of our times that teams like Stoke, Sunderland and Bolton have a strategy of 'kick and bully' against Arsenal, yet escape unscathed. Your beloved Shawcross has broken limbs or seriously injured 3 players in two seasons and that is Wenger's fault!! Arsenal has conceded the softest penalties at game turning moments and is at the receiving end of most controversial calls. Contrast that with Manchester United and the actions of Vidic, Giggs and Fletcher (which have not merited a red card this season). Get objective mate.

Editor Comment - The standard of refereeing is an interesting angle... I'm very curious as to the 2 other players in the last two seasons Ryan has broken the limbs of/seriously injured!? I couldn't comment on the penalties conceded but I imagine for every soft one you have won a questionable one...

Posted by rickie on 02/22/2011

Before I begin, Bolton fan here.

Everyone knows statistics can be deceiving. I don't have to look up disciplinary records to know what type of team Stoke is - I just have to watch them play. The last game I caught was the Sunderland match. I really don't see how you can deny that the squad centers around strong, physical players. All three of your goals came from being tough in the box on set pieces and basically pushing your way into the net. To label them bullies all the time may be harsh, but all exaggerations have a bit of truth in them.

The tone of your article is incredibly defensive which, to me, suggests a guilty conscience. I want to take you seriously friend, but in all honesty, I find your arguments delusional. I have a feeling your Shawcross thoughts would terrify me.

Editor Comment - Welcome Trotter! You caught a pretty awful match truth be told, we weren't great that day by any stretch and to be honest that was the only tactic we had on the day, but it worked so why stop doing it? The article IS defensive because of the utter drivel being directed our way since we beat Arsenal, I don't write about any other team like this because I don't need to, they have professional respect.

Posted by DeRexBox on 02/22/2011

An unfortunate 50/50 w/ Ramsey? It was completely reckless, very high, and made with so much force he broke his leg. Get over being a homer and realize it.

I am an Arsenal supporter and I agree, THIS season they have been one of the dirtier teams in the league. But after all the nasty injuries over the last 3 years...I don't think they care, and neither do I. At least nobody has broken their leg as a result of a challenge. COME ON GUNNERS!

Editor Comment - I said I wouldn't comment on the incident but will do this once! It was NOT a reckless tackle, it was a 50/50 ball that was slightly mistimed because Bendtner had pulled Shawcross back by the short a fraction before. Ryan's studs were also down and his laces were up so not high in the slightest.

NO MORE COMMENTS ABOUT THE INCIDENT WILL BE PUBLISHED.

Posted by Mike on 02/22/2011

Mr Whittaker,

I e-mailed a factual reply to you before and perdicted you wouldn't publish it. You didn't disappoint. It wasn't abusive or rude, it just pointed out a few facts you omitted whilst continuing to rag on Arsenal. I only have this to say this time: And you think Wenger's a whiner??

Editor Comment - I'm just getting around to publishing comments now, it it wasn't abusive or going over the Shawcross incident it should have been published, if not please send again and I'll have a look...

Posted by nick on 02/22/2011

While this season it is true that Arsenal have been guilty of a fair number of fouls, more then previous seasons, it seems as though they can't get it right with all the critics. They're either too soft or dirty, how can it be both? If you want to compare Stoke from last season to Arsenal this season it might be a better reflection of two teams that are willing to throw everything at the opponent legally or otherwise. Let's just hope there is a game tomorrow and not another bus stopped in front of the Stoke net.
If you're going to be as critical of Arsenal as you were in this post it seems like you are using a bit of a double standard here to post your own abusive comments and saying that you won't post those who are critical of your point of view.
Good luck, stoke will get nothing from the game tomorrow!

Editor Comment - Hi Nick, my comments are based on events that have occured, mainly Wenger's vendetta against Ryan. I too hope for a good game tomorrow, you may well see the bus make an appearance as I think we only have the one winger fit so will be on the back foot for the most part...

Enjoy the game...

Posted by Harvey on 02/22/2011

First of all, any abuse is obviously wrong but to make sweeping generalisations about all Arsenal fans on the back of a few idiots on Twitter is silly.

You make a few fair points e.g. I can see how the whole 'holier than thou' stuff that comes out of Arsenal can get annoying at times(although a lot of it is fuelled by the press). The main issue I have with your blog is its shrillness and lack of perspective. Wenger has 'ruthlessly pursued a personal vendetta against the club'. Really? Asked in the aftermath of last year's game what he thought of the Shawcross tackle he described it as 'horrendous' - not exactly vicious. The rugby tactics jibe that seems to have upset you so much is also hardly the first time such an analogy has been used. Provocative? Yes. Ruthless? Get a life. I doubt Wenger cares enough about Stoke or Ryan Shawcross to want to pursue ruthless vendettas. Arsenal fans definitely don't. Enjoy your visit to North London on Wed. May football be the winner...

Editor Comment - Hi Harvey, I did make a point of saying that I have also come across many objective Gooners. Wengers comments are numerous, the main one prompting a complaint from the club was him making up an incident in a game he wasn't involved in - do you think that's right? What other manager would ever do that?

Posted by Kal Bene on 02/22/2011

As a Gunners fan, having never read your posts before I was, I have to admit, a bit curious as to what your "take" on everything would be.
I agree that much has been made of Stoke's rugby tactics, too much really, and I appreciate that you've probably had to endure some abuse from some Arsenal fans for speaking your mind on the Aaron Ramsey incident.
I think your summary of the situation as an "unfortunate 50/50 challenge" is wrong but you are entitled to that belief and if, God forbid, several of your players had suffered career-threatening injury from reckless tackles maybe you would feel differently.
I think what irritated the Arsenal fans as much as it did was the Stoke fans laughing and chanting while Ramsey was on the field with his leg in three pieces, the public outcry of support for Shawcross and the zero sympathy for Ramsey.
You and articles like this only make it worse, painting yourselves as victims and pretending that you won't be cheering every borderline tackle.
Enjoy

Editor Comment - Hi Kal, 50/50s and accidents happen game in game out. When Stoke were pushing for promotion we signed Delap, it was a big deal for us and in his first game (away) he was instrumental in us beating Leeds 4-0, he then went on to make his home debut and had his leg snapped in two right in front of me, there was no histrionics, no waving of imaginary cards, just a lot of disappointment. That robbed us of an influential new signing for a long time, and Pulis' response?

"“Two people have just gone in for a challenge. Elliott is a seasoned pro and would know Rory, so I’m sure the last thing he would want to do is break his leg.”"

Now look at Wenger's response and conduct since then...

Posted by Eli on 02/22/2011

To be fair on Arsenal's fair play rating,

- Diaby's was not a foul, but a reaction to a possible leg-breaking tackle from Barton

- Sagna's was a double red with Zabaleta with only the argentine as the deserving offender

- Koscielny's were two soft yellows in his debut and a last-man challenge. Song's was fairly soft as well.

Wilshere's was the only one that deserved a straight red and could be considered malicious.

That's not to say that footballing generalizations about fouls and style of play are sometimes misconstrued. Stoke has been fine this year, though anyone who looks at Shawcross's challenge should know it was a bad one. Intent or not it was a terrible decision.

As an Arsenal fan I'm particularly defensive about leg-breaking challenges because we have seen our fair share (Ramsey, Diaby, Gibbs (foot), Eduardo, etc)

Editor Comment - Diaby's was for violent conduct, you can't really dress it up as otherwise, tackles and 50/50's happen, you can't go around throwing people to the ground?! I understand and symapthise to the bizarre number of breaks you have had to contend with, you have put forward the case well, Wenger did not...

Posted by bennybigs on 02/22/2011

i do not want to insult you in any way as every team feels the media and powers that be are againts us and we all want to defend our teams players but how anyone can call the challenge 50/50 really is beyond me. i honestly believe stoke play much better footbal than most people give them credit for but i also think its common knowledge tony pulis is a thug. from an arsenal point of veiw what do you think of the comment earlier about when arsenal loose where southern softies and when we win where foriegn cheats.

Editor Comment - To be fair, 99% of current/ex pros agreed that it was a 50/50 including Lee Dixon and Stewart Robson. That's an interesting comment at the end, when Arsenal play well it's great and they rightly get the plaudits, when they lose they will often moan and cheat and maybe that's what gets people's backs up?

Posted by Caleb on 02/22/2011

Stoke plays physical, not dirty. There's a difference. The Potter's roster is filled with big, athletic players (Jones, Walters, Huth, Shawcross, Fuller, Carew, etc). Stoke plays to its strength - any half-way decent manager will style his football according his players' strengths. It seems most of the Premiership has grown a respect for Stoke's tough-nosed style - except for Arsenal.

The Ramsey tackle was unfortunate. It shouldn't have happened. However, it is unfair to characterize Shawcross or Stoke as a whole by an isolated incident. The fact is Stoke's player discipline statistics do not reveal a dirty team. Obviously, the club plays very physical - watching 5 minutes of a given match displays that. They do not, however, play dirty. It's time for Wenger to get over it.

Editor Comment - I agree, the stats don't lie, as I said in the 3 previous meetings that season with Arsenal we got no cards at all and this season have committed the third fewest fouls!

Posted by James Avery on 02/22/2011

Not buying into any of you're nonsense at all. Its such a shame how much more confident pathetic people like you are behind a computer screen. You and the rest of the world know that no matter how many red cards or yellow cards Arsenal accumulate, they are not the least bit close to a dirty team. Stoke makes challenges that jeopardize careers. Simple as that. Don't even try paint yourself as the victim here, I feel so sorry for Arsenal who've had the worst experience with horrific tackling. You and I both know all the examples. Now put yourself in Arsene Wenger's position. How on earth are you supposed to ensure the safety of your players except by moaning to the public so much that the dirty players who make such tackles begin to be more cautious? If anything, I think the man Arsene Wenger is a genius, he knows exactly what he's doing every time he moans. He calls attention to such horrific tackling and people start being more cautious. Quite simple really.

Editor Comment - Stoke players jeopardise careers? What a joke, you obviously missed Wilshere's challenge, studs up just under the knee. You have 2 reds for violent conduct this season, we have none. Also, by your reasoning Stoke aren't dirty anymore if Wenger has cried about it?

Posted by bennybigs on 02/22/2011

thanks for replying as i understand you dont want to keep going over the incident. this is probably me being paranoid but i think pundits (even ex arsenal players) wont break away from what other pundits are saying as they wont get any more work i think we all must ask ourselves how stan collymore gets himself on the tv and radio. that is why i have gained a bit of respect for alan pardew for saying something different than anyone else on the rooney goal. after your loss tomorow good luck for the rest of the season.

Editor Comment - Cheers Benny, enjoy the game.

Posted by Nabil Danial on 02/22/2011

As a neutral (a Chelsea fan), do you think playing physical and "rugby tactics" can make you enjoy watching football? It might give you winning SOME games, but it is not the way to approach things in football IMO. Have you ever heard, 'the best team wins'?
So, what indicates the 'best team' is? It covers all aspects in positive ways to play; eg. dominating the game, play good football if not beautiful football, and etc. These are called as positive football. Negative football (anti-football) covers physical play (or dirty tactics), less dominating (but approach high degree of effectiveness) and etc.
If I ask you, would you prefer your team play positive or negative football?
Even I hate Arsenal (because I envy their style in everything), they play the way no other in the league were able to do, to play their own game in order to achieve success. Yet, they're receive less credit for that. If you look at Barca game, they win in their own style, thats what oppose other team would do.

Editor Comment - So you criticise the way Stoke play then go on to praise Arsenal for winning by 'playing their own game'?

Posted by salopstick on 02/22/2011

Continuing the #dirtyarsenal trend how about robin van persie's blatant headbut on thomas sorrenson and subsequent red card in our first season.

the team are very dirty under wenger and always have been and arsene always fails to see it

Editor Comment - Yep, in the game we were accused of being bullies RVP got a red for violent conduct and if I remember rightly Adebayor got away with a De Jong style kick into Ryan's chest?

Posted by Jack Straw on 02/22/2011

James, I'll bet you any amount of money that if you had a genuinely neutral football fan watch the game tomorrow and asked him the team more likely to cause a serious injury, 9 times out of 10 it will be Stoke. Until you can acknowledge that your team plays football with a type of mentality that causes an unnecessarily high risk of serious injury it's impossible to view your defensiveness as anything other than an admission of guilt.

Editor Comment - Stoke play a committed, physical game, strangely enough that's what the game was built on. Everytime any footballer goes onto the pitch they risk injury, that's why it's called a contact sport?!

Posted by FoxMulder on 02/22/2011

Glad to hear your foul statistics are down this season - probably due to not having played Arsenal. We'll see how they stand after tomorrow.

Hide behind your statistics all you want. Statistics don't reveal character. Shawcross is an ape. Has about as much skill as a sock full of nickels.

Editor Comment - No comment on us not having received any cards in 3 games against you last season?

Shawcross is an ape with no skill? You'd better tell Man Utd, Liverpool, Inter Milan and Real Madrid that then as they are all linked.

Posted by Tom Gordon on 02/22/2011

"Arsenal has conceded the softest penalties at game turning moments and is at the receiving end of most controversial calls."

And we all know why, don't we? It's because the Satanic referees--no, the entire Satanic Premiere League--conspires against Arsenal because they hate them for being so saintly and skillful at the same time!

Thanks for reminding me why I hate Arsenal more than any other club... I really do admire their style of play, and think Wenger should be commended for doing such an excellent job building his club. But the incessant whining from him and others and the holier-than-thou attitude gets me.

Posted by Kal Bene on 02/22/2011

Thank you for posting my earlier comment and my apologies for not knowing about the Delap leg break.
I completely agree that 50/50s and accidents do happen, I wasn't able to find video of the Delap/Elliott incident and thus can't judge.
I fully realize that our team isn't exempt from bad tackles as our players have certainly committed a few.
Where Arsenal fans get upset and where the vitriol towards Ryan Shawcross comes from is that it has happened regularly to our players and there is an accepted practice that Arsenal "don't like it up 'em" which gives license it seems to a rash of late and overzealous challenges on our players.
The attitude of most Stoke fans I know is the same and cheering an injury is never acceptable.
As great a coach as Wenger is, I don't condone some of his whining to the media and most Gunners don't either. Some of the Wenger, Pulis banter has been quite funny though.
Good luck in the game and hopefully you have a straightforward match report to write

Editor Comment - No need to apologise, it was a low key Championship game! I understand the issue of the widely accepted notion of 'they don't like it up em' and also the frustration of so many injuries, I just think that Wenger has gone well over the top with his targetted attacks on Ryan, himself a young player who, whilst he had no broken bones, has not been the same player since.

Enjoy the game...

Posted by Gooner chap on 02/22/2011

I think the difference in philosophy is what causes the friction.

Arsenal, and many other clubs, don't like being bullied by stoke, not by deliberate foul play, but by long balls, long throws and imposing centre forwards.

Anybody who remembers street fighter 2 or mortal kombat from back in the day will know of people who would capitalise on a game exploit to kill you with one move(one button wonders). FPS players surely know about 'campers'.

This is what arsene see's stoke as, but so long as sticking two men on the keeper and hurling the ball in to the box, stoke will continue to take points off more skillful opposition!

Editor Comment - Loving the analogy! If you take style away from it though, if there are 2 ways of playing, both within the laws of football, why should we stop doing it if it is effective and getting points? People don't say that Arsenal should stop the intricate pass and moves because others aren't as good at it?

Posted by Tom on 02/22/2011

I'm hoping you'll permit me to use the Shawcross/Ramsey incident as an example to raise a question rather than as a point of criticism.

Given the benefit of slow-motion replay it is easy to place blame on Shawcross for that challenge. He failed to make contact with the ball, and Ramsey's injury was the consequence. However, I saw no malicious intent in the tackle; a fraction of a second made the difference between winning the ball cleanly and breaking a leg. It started as a 50/50 ball, but at the point of contact it was a 100/0 challenge and the result was predictable.

Given the pace of the game, can a player realistically be expected to realize mid-tackle that they're more likely to injure another player than they are to win the ball? Should they be expected to hold back to minimize the chance of a tackle causing serious injury? Is the onus on the ball carrier / player in the better position to win the ball responsible for protecting himself from an incoming tackle?

Editor Comment - Firstly I'd disagree that it ended up a 100/0 - ironically the fraction he was late was down to Bendtner pulling him back, Ramsey also jumped into the challenge two feet off the ground and landed firm in the turf at the worst moment possible.

It's a good question you raise, it's always been the way in the football that the person who hesitates or backs out of a 50/50 is the one that gets hurt. Players are so muchfitter these days and the boots offer less and less protection with every new lightweight model.

Plenty to think about...

Posted by RoversFan on 02/22/2011

Glad to see you sticking up for your team. It seems that if you're not in contention for a Champions League place or a media favorite (Blackpool/Bolton), it's hard to find many good things being published.

I'm interested to see what Wenger has to say when Blackburn go to play Arsenal later this season. For the past few seasons he's been clinging to the notion that we are still the same foul-happy team that propped up the disciplinary table under Mark Hughes.

Best of luck to Stoke and Arsenal, and may the team who scores the most goals win!

Editor Comment - Even funnier that now he is at good old Fulham suddenly everything is different!

Posted by Eric on 02/23/2011

I am sorry to hear that some Arsenal fans are being abusive to you. Being an Arsenal fan myself, I would rather first look at the faults within our own team rather than point at the finger at others (e.g. the Newcastle game). However, allow me to say that Arsenal have seen 3 highly promising players suffering a broken foot (Diaby, Edurado and Ramsey) due to challenges, and that certainly cause grievances amongst the fans, and probably Mr Wenger. Still, hurling abuses at others is disgraceful, and I hope those Arsenal fans really think about their actons (or those who are hurling abuses at Arsenal). Let's hope for a good game of football on Wednesday and may the best team come out victorious.

Editor Comment - Excellent post Eric, thanks...

Posted by gabriel on 02/23/2011

honestly dude. answer this question. Do you think Shawcross' challenge on Ramsey was 50/50?
Honestly, 50/50? Yes of course this matter is blown up way overboard, but the lowdown is,

Did Shawcross go into the challenge PURELY to win the ball against Ramsey?
Yes or No you answer that question and we have our answer.

Editor Comment - Of courser he went in for the ball?!

Posted by Zach on 02/23/2011

Well said man, I am an Arsenal fan but I do get annoyed with how Wenger treats you guys. I mean I thought it was women who hold grudges and take things too personal. The team not as much, I mean some of them do talk about Stoke but some of them just play very physical and that just means Wenger needs to be quiet about how rough you guys play because we play just as rough or more so. And on the Shawcross incident, that was completely unlucky, I mean watching the replays, he has a bad touch and extends out to try and get the ball and goes in fully committed as he very well should. Things happen. Anyway this should be a good game, always a fun one to watch with how tense all the talk makes this match.

Editor Comment - Thanks Zach, I've no doubt it will be pretty one sided but of course it will be, as our Manager says, you're on a different level to us. The game at the Britannia should see us with more of a chance though.

Posted by Gooner ABQ on 02/23/2011

Look, I understand the pain of waking up in the morning to see your club's name in columns written by bad writers trying to exaggerate details. That said, this a very bitter pill to sallow from an Arsenal fan's standpoint. Our midfielders leg was snapped in three. Now we hear bloggers complaining about how their club is being victimized with unfair stereotypes. Get over yourself. Have Arsenal been a clean club this year? Far from it, but we win and do not break players legs. Ryan was in tears after this horrendous accident, I feel for him but that doesn't make me like him or concede his tackle was 50-50. He went in with the intent to win the ball, but if he didn't he had no problem leaving Ramsey with a mental note of the physical aspect of the game. He went in to hard and frankly deserved his red. My club is stereotyped, picked apart and laughed at on a daily basis, but we win. And do that beautifully. Like Leeds of old, if Stoke begins to win no one will care. But you won't. Cheers.

Editor Comment - Stereotypes don't bother me so much, it's the made up lies spouted specifically to discredit Shawcross that are unfair, do you not agree?

Posted by Slappinjax on 02/23/2011

Firstly, respect to you for being proud of your team and posting and answering all the comments. Also respect to Stoke for effecting a system that has ensured consistent survival in the Premier League (might not be pretty but it is effective).

I'll let you in on a secret. Neither Arsenal, Arsene Wenger nor the Gunners fans care in the slightest about Stoke. They just want to walk away from the game with 3 points and no serious injuries and Stoke can head off back to that grim midlands hole they came from. Arsene like Fergie knows how to use the media to get every bit of influence in favour of his team as possible. It's naive to take public statements from managers as verbatim and getting outraged by them is pointless.

Editor Comment - Throw away comments etc as seen by Fergie are mind games, targetted absue of a club and more importanlty a player, including making up incidents to discredit them shows a distinct lack of class.

Posted by poodee on 02/23/2011

"People don't say that Arsenal should stop the intricate pass and moves because others aren't as good at it?"

Actually, don't people say arsenal should stop playing so much and get dirtier?

Editor Comment - They do say that, but it's more as a reaction to the kind of things we're hearing from Wenger. It would seem he is listening too given the card count this year!

Posted by Alexander Ekechukwu on 02/23/2011

I think the dialogue is not what it when the editor canonizes Stoke and defends almost every complaint. It is belief in such manner of playing football that makes it difficult for England to compete effectively. Stoke represents an antiquated way of playing football.It may win them games but will produce few players who will be called up to represent England to compete with the rest of Europe.

Editor Comment - I'd say buying foreign teenagers over English ones does more harm to the National side then any style of play ever could.

Posted by Fadi Manuel on 02/23/2011

An Arsenal Fan here
All the arsenal red cards have been from 2 red cards and it has not been because of a hard tackle that you could break a player's leg
I know Koscielny has 2 red cards but so does Showcrass.
Even if Arsenal have 6 red cards they are still playing amazing football.

Editor Comment - I assume you mean '2 yellow cards' in which case you're still wrong, Wilshere and Diaby both got straight red cards for violent conduct?!

Posted by hamish on 02/23/2011

im looking at comments and i see people talking about arsenal being dirty?! like rvp and adebayor! rvp does one thing to a cheeky goalkeep and adebayor is a worthless piece of trash who has never been supported by the arsenal fans or wenger for that matter. arsenal are probably the most genuine club in the world and dont use diving or dirty tacticks so stop talking out of your asses just because they are a better overall team and have a sexier style of play than who ever you support!

Editor Comment - I stopped reading after 'don't do diving"

Posted by matt on 02/23/2011

for all those arsenal fans who truly believe their team plays the "right way", please, look past your bias and watch the true arsenal. there are plenty of clips to help you.

Also, it seems that arsenal has a worse disciplinary record than stoke so far this season. ah yes.. arsenal really do play the "right way".

Posted by Nandu on 02/23/2011

@Whittaker,
Stoke is labeled as a rugby team just coz the players use their physical strength to get the better of their opponents, just as in rugby. I love the way Etherington and Pennant play. They have the aggressiveness and winning mentality but doesn't rely 'much' on physical attributes as some others do..
You came up with statistics for this season. Any idea why have the numbers come down? It's coz of the number of fouls they have committed last season and they want to get rid of the 'rugby team' label. In 2008-09, Stoke was the worst side in terms of discipline (20th) and in 2009-10, they climbed to 15th! If I'm right, they have committed close to 600 fouls last season, which averages to 16 per game which is definitely high. So in a way, Arsenal is getting used to the style showing that they are no more bullied and they can do their share as well! In fact, I hate the team going to that extent, Wilshere's challenge was as bad as it can get. Hope it doesn't get repeated.

Editor Comment - Every team that comes up has to compete with years of TV money and often fouling is more prevalent. Surely the fact that our foul count has gone down as we sign better players and attack more ourselves is a good thing? I too hope for a good clean game

Posted by bob on 02/23/2011

I think we all know how much statistics can lie. There are many factors that can skew those numbers.
How many times has Shawcross received a red card since the incident with Ramsey?
Referees have a huge influence on statistics. Please don't defend Stoke's position by relying on them.

Editor Comment - Twice, I'm not sure of your point? The whole football system is regualted by laws and punishments, by what else can we possibly measure?

Posted by TopGooner on 02/23/2011

As true as it may seems that the way Stoke plays is effective, so why stop? But is that really the way you want to watch your team play? Spend that kind of money for ticket matches?

Look at Bolton for example, under Sam they were no different than what Stoke is now. But with Owen they are a totally different team with only minimal player changes and doing well if not better. I'm sure Bolton fans are much happier these days.

So don't say you're playing to your strengths when you don't even know what they are.

Editor Comment - Not that you will know but our style has changed and we see much more possession and flair now, indeed there aren't many sides who play with two out and out wingers are there?

As for Bolton, they are statistically still pumping more long balls than us - once again, people hear what the media say about them playing so differently, they have changed but still very much use the basis Big Sam left.

Posted by Slappinjax on 02/23/2011

Arsene is going to do everything he can to get protection for his style of free flowing football. The way Stoke play is at the opposite end of the spectrum with their physical, set piece based play(which they have every right to play). Arsene attacks Stoke because they are the seen as the most representative of "anti-football". Atacking Stoke is more to garner support for Arsenal's style then any genuine vendetta against your club.

Also, sorry to say but Stoke are easy targets. They don't have many friends as there are plenty of teams who've left Britannia feeling like they just got mugged and Stoke has little top flight history or influence.

Stoke have benefited with survival in the Premier League through their style but you'll have to accept it's not an approach that wins much support from neutrals.

Editor Comment - I think you'll find there is plenty of respect amongst fellow professionals for Stoke and what we have achieved. A lot of johnny come lately 'EPL' fanboys don't realise that we are the oldest club in the league and a founder member and spent the majority of our history in the top division. It's comments like that that show a complete disregard for fact and disrespect for history before the Permier League.

Posted by mack on 02/23/2011

you are a deluded fan and your blind fascination to fabricate opinion into fact is your downfall mate.Just be straight up and be fan ,no need to discredit wenger or arsenal
there is nothing wrong with takings sides its nature of football , lets compete and respect one another

Editor Comment - Only one person fabricating things and that's Wenger, do you agree with him making an incident up to discredit a player?

Posted by Joshua T. on 02/23/2011

Hi,
I'm a Liverpool fan from Malaysia,and after reading your article as well as the comments,I just felt I needed to put in my 2 cents' worth.
I am disgusted by some of the Arsenal 'fans' who can't get over an incident which occured 3 years ago and who feel the need to ridicule Stoke for the way they play. Particularly the last poster: 'is that the way you want to see your team play?'
Look,I grew up watching Roy Evans' Liverpool,with players like Fowler,Macca,Barnes,Redknapp playing lovely football. In terms of entertainment,it all went downhill under Houllier,Rafa and Hodgson,in my honest opinion,even if we might have won more under Houllier and Rafa. Does that mean I stopped supporting my team? No! We love our teams for our own reasons,not merely for the way they play.
For the Arsenal fans,shame on you for lording it over others because you play a supposedly more aesthetically pleasing way. What has that won you? To Mr Whittaker,good job on the article and all the best for the game!

Editor Comment - Hi Joshua, what an excellent post.

Posted by salopstick on 02/23/2011

as far as the debate on shawcross goes you only have to look at the one sided article in todays daily mirror, exaggerated stories like this do not do anything but provide armchair fans with opinions that are usually way off the mark

anyone who watches stoke city week in week out can see through this

another fact worth mentioning is stoke city are the only premiership team not to recieve a card for dissent this season, lets see usual suspects like fabregas hound the ref after a perfectly legitimate challenge tonight

if fabregas and sol campbel had spent as much time worrying about their injured team mate on the floor as opposed to waving cards to the ref then the ramsey tackle wouldnt be blown out of all the proportion it has

i accept arsenal are not that physical and to be fair not that dirty, but they are petulent and ooze the wrong type of arrogance. if wenger could instill some grit in them, to accept fair challenges and descisions they might get respect from the neutral

Editor Comment - I've no problem with a committed challange and couldn't give a toss about Arsenal's discipline, Wenger just makes sure that everyone does with his hypocrisy and lies.

Posted by FinGooner on 02/23/2011

Otherwise fair writing but I think you are making too much of things that have been said in the heat of the moment and after a huge dissapointment, which Ramsey's injury obviously was. Look at the comments Luka Corluka said after the viscious tackle by Flamini (a former Arsenal player - I know). But I truly don't think Corluka really thinks Flamini should go to jail. Wenger has only made a couple of comments about Stoke and Shawcross after the incident and most of the comments made by managers during the season can be counted as psychological play.

As an Arsenal fan, I think that if Arsenal wants to win the premier league, they have to be able to face and win all kinds of premier league opponents. Lots of teams play like Stoke against Arsenal since they don't have any options.

Anyway, I hope we beat you 6-0 but if we don't I promise not to take any credit away from your team. In some perverted way I admire Pulis and his commitment to this so called "anti-football" philosophy.

Editor Comment - Thanks for the back handed compliment ;D Our problem is not with the immediate aftermath but the continued unprovoked attacks and lies about Shawcross - do you think making things up is fair?

Posted by Viswaram on 02/23/2011

I see you conveniently missed the part where many people indicated to you, how your angelic Stoke fans jeered and laughed when Aaron Ramsey was down on the ground, with his leg torn to shreds. Just wanted to tell you that despite all your concerted efforts, Rambo is back and what do you know, your article actually proved to be lucky. He scored yesterday. It is only a matter of days before we see him back for Arsenal and the precious sight of him nutmegging Shawcross and scoring against you.

Editor Comment - You're right, I did see that and completely forgot to comment. I only saw replays of one lad making a gesture and didn't hear any singing but if anyone did, well, I don't need to describe the kind of individual that does that. I'm glad Ramsey is back to fitness, he is a cracking prospect, I look forward to seeing him back in your first team soon...

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