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Posted by James Whittaker on 03/01/2010

Stoke’s magnificent unbeaten run came to a shocking end as we were beaten 3-1 at the Britannia following a game blighted by a horrible injury to Arsenal’s Aaron Ramsey.

This piece will not follow the normal format so there won’t be any player ratings, I would however like to discuss the main talking point which was the tackle that ended Ramsey’s season and the subsequent witch hunt against Ryan Shawcross who, in my opinion, was as innocent as Ramsey in the whole affair. The referee himself admitting that the tackle was not worthy of a red card and that it was the injury that prompted the sending off.


Ryan Shawcross ©Getty Images

Since Wenger came to this country he has turned Arsenal into a carpet footballing side admired by many across the globe. His side playing arguably the best football in the country and Wenger himself is very much of the philosophy that THIS is how football should be played and any detractors, especially successful ones, are often derided by the outspoken Frenchman.

What Wenger won’t readily admit, however, is that his only tangible success in this country with Arsenal was when he had players such as Adams, Winterburn, Vieira and Petit in his side, players who were committed and full blooded purveyors of the English game, players who helped earn Arsenal the honour of being one of the dirtiest teams in the country, a team collecting no less than 73 red cards between 1996 and 2008. That committed English core of a team is now reduced to a team of foreign players ironically killing the fabric and integrity of the English game far quicker than any style of football ever could.

This game saw a physical contest as you would expect and some dodgy Arsenal defending as you would expect. It saw two teams of players who were largely committed, it also saw a number of cynical fouls, largely by the Arsenal players but this is not what people will be talking about. What people are talking about is the tragic moment that Shawcross and Ramsey went in for a 50/50 tackle and Ramsey’s leg was broken in two places.

I have watched the incident over and over, studied the timeline of still photographs and like 99% of people who have come out publically, believe it to be a 50/50 challenge where one player came out worse than the other, there was no malice or intent by the ‘accused’ Shawcross yet Mr Wenger in this incident that he DID ‘see’ would have us believe that Shawcross, under the instruction of his manager, planned an horrific assault with calculation and efficiency.

Mr Wenger would be wrong. No doubt he would have also not seen Bendtner pull Shawcross back by the shirt, seconds before, an action adding to the defender mistiming his challenge by a split second.

Every single ex professional that has commented on the challenge that I have seen on TV, heard on the radio and read in the newspapers since have said that it was a tragic ACCIDENT, every single one, apart from Mr Wenger. Even Lee Dixon, said it was little more than an accident, this a player who has captained Wenger’s beloved Arsenal, a player part of a successful Arsenal team, still with links to his old club.

Despite every other person ‘seeing’ this, Mr Wenger still fails to, he wrongly lays the blame at the feet of Shawcross and the English game, speaking of previous similar injuries in the same sentence as if Stoke City were involved in all three. People are used to Wenger’s random attacks, normally after a loss or an injury and this was no different, but this time it was a player from MY club, a player who was clearly distraught at what had happened, a player that had to be driven home by his parents, yet a player so well respected by all others in the game that merely an hour later had been called up to the full England squad.

Wenger does not acknowledge Shawcross’ character, nor the fact that in previous meetings it has been Arsenal players red carded for violent conduct, nor that after the incident it was Stoke players who were caring for the injured Ramsey whilst his own colleagues were looking away or chasing after the referee demanding a red card. That says more about their own characters than that of the Stoke team.

The way the Arsenal players acted immediately after the incident was disgraceful and I hope Ramsey when all is said and done will himself recognise the fact that it was the opposition that kept him from looking at his injury, the opposition that kept his head straight and cleared his airways, but that doesn’t fit as nicely into Wenger’s agenda so will no doubt be overlooked like the many other incidents that he manages NOT to see.

Ryan Shawcross should hold his head high over the whole affair and Stoke City rightly take the moral high ground over all that has happened in the aftermath, perhaps if Wenger had the decency to look back over the last few years of mediocrity, he would realise it is exactly characters like Shawcross his team so desperately needs.

His words, whilst naturally frustrated, were disrespectful to Ryan, who will also carry the burden of this tackle for the rest of his career. Hopefully the young England player will ignore the Frenchman and understand that these things happen in football, and be happy in the fact that the more experienced and professional Capello is comfortable in his assessment that he is one of a handful of the best centre-backs this country can offer .

As for Wenger, well he should perhaps look to his opposite number for how to react to such an accident; Rory Delap, 10 mins into his home debut for Stoke went for a 50/50 ball and broke his leg in two places keeping him out for 9 months, and what was Pulis’ response?

“Two people have just gone in for a challenge. Elliott is a seasoned pro and would know Rory, so I’m sure the last thing he would want to do is break his leg.”

Such professionalism and level headedness seems missing with Wenger and whilst it seems he struggles with the English footballing culture, he seems to have bought into the blame game so prevalent in the rest of society today.


Comments

Posted by Vinod on 03/01/2010

He could and should have pulled out of the tackle...He did not...He crossed a fine lne between a competitive challenge and a nasty one...The stoke fans were disgraceful after "an Accident" took out Wales most prodigious talent...


Posted by Knighty on 03/01/2010

Shawcross innocent! Francis Jeffers! Adebayor! Ramsey! Whose next?

Posted by D King on 03/01/2010

Ryan Shawcross had no intention of turning Aaron Ramsey‘s leg into putty when he went into his tackle yesterday. Martin Taylor had no interest in seeing Eduardo’s leg shattered in two when he went studs up against him two years ago. Dan Smith took no delight in the crunching sound of Abou Diaby’s ankle being fractured and dislocated when he went in late against him two years before that. To assume otherwise would be to accuse them of being sociopathic maniacs. I am sure they are not.

However, what I am sure of is that all those injuries are the result of a particularly pernicious facet of English football in general, and playing against Arsenal in particular – the art of “getting stuck in.” This talent, which is occasionally also called “Playing a man’s game,””getting it ‘up em,” and “giving him something to remember with every challenge” is exalted in the English game. To the rest of the world, it is nothing more than one player kicking the **** out of another.

Posted by Peter Mason on 03/01/2010

It's people like you that make me laugh (in a sick sort of way). Shawcross didn't mean to break his leg (of course he didn't - only a lunatic would want to do that), but he already has a bad track record having broken Jeffers ankle and, last season, he put Adebayor out for 3 weeks with a viscious tackle that was off the pitch. Now he may have eneded teh career of a very promising youngster (I really hope he hasn't). So if you're saying Shawcross can hold his head up high for having a track record of being a football thug I think that either makes you wrong or someone who has expressed an opinion based on zero research....

Posted by Andy B on 03/01/2010

Er, what? You are in postion to speak of Wenger as you do...you support a side devoid of talent bar some big defenders and a long throw specialist. Wenger was angry after the game...wouldn't you be? Seeing it for the third time in four years? Get over yourself.

By the way, there was only two players from before Wengers era present in the Invincibles and the 2005 FA cup winning side...so hardly a dependence on old defenders (all of whom credit Wenger for extending their careers). Also, Arsenal are the most consistent qualifiers in Europe for the last 16 of the Champions League - 13 years without fail.

Shawcross broke Jeffers leg, tried to break Adebayours last season and broke Rambos this season. It was late, high, hard and he didn't get the ball - Poor poor tackle, red card, upset managers, all part of the process. The only person at fault here is Shawcross...and people like you and Collymore who pale to nothing when compared to Wenger, slagging him off for caring.

Posted by Barndoor Bendtner on 03/01/2010

In any other industry or profession these injuries would be punished in the courts under H&S rules, assuming they were unintentional, or the criminal courts, if was intentional.
To say they are acceptable because they have happened before is like saying miners should still work with no helmets and a canary in a cage. When will the FA UEFA & FIFA really try and cut this out rather than getting so distraught when somebody dives.

The FA should remove Shawcross from England duties at the very least, but if they had any standards at all they wouldnt still have Terry there on the basis that he is a classless ****.

Posted by Scott Curry on 03/01/2010

Shawshank—or whatever--left his feet WAY before he should have to get at that ball. Look at the video footage...he goes into the tackle WELL before where the ball is and there is no way you can have any kind of control over a tackle like that. It's mindless and you are worthless if you tackle like that...it's cowardly, especially when you are coming straight on to another player. There doesn't have to be forethought of malice for it to be malicious. The wider point is that managers like Pulis, Brown and Alardyce FLAT OUT SAY say we are going to try and physically intimidate Arsenal: bad for the skilled players, and bad for the majority of fans, unless you're a supporter of a team that plays those tactics because you're NOT GOOD ENOUGH to play in the EPL.

Posted by brdgunner on 03/01/2010

This is at least the third time he has been involved in such an incident. And its not him that we are angry with its this attitude. Just like the last time its the culprit getting sympathy not the victim. Outside of Arsenal no one will highlight the constant fouling of our players.

You can't deny that you and many other sides like playing us, because, its a chance to kick out without fear of redemption.

Shawcross, I don't think he meant to injure Ramsey. No one does, what we are upset with is that it is always going to happen when we are allowed to be fouled like this.

How many times is Cesc kicked a game? And each time the player gets away with it he kicks harder until something like this happens.

I can't believe that Wenger is being vindicated yet again.

Posted by angus Walker on 03/01/2010

What about October 2007 when Shawcross broke Francis Jeffer's ankle What about the tackle on Adebayor in November 2008 of the pitch directly on his ankle Dont give me that about him not having a bad bone in his body after three horrendous challenges and say he is as 'innocent as Ramsey'....

Posted by RedandDread on 03/01/2010

How many more legs do you want Shawcross to break? Two and counting-not bad for a 22 yr old.

Posted by Ben on 03/01/2010

What total biased toot. U fail to mention his previous mistimed and uncontroled tackles in other games, this isnt a one off from the boy.

Posted by Barndoor Bendtner on 03/01/2010

Ha ha ha .....Ive just seen the HSE advert at the top of the page.

"Simple mistakes can shatter lives. Your actions could stop them happening"

Bloody hell that says it all. We should all do everything we can to stop players getting injuries, intentionally or otherwise.
Shawcross was not malicious but his lack of skill and training cost Ramsey dear.

Posted by Adam Truman on 03/01/2010

If this was the first time I would agree, but Shawcross has broken Francis Jeffers leg and almost broke Adebayor's ankle with a late challenge with him and the ball out of play ! This resulted with him being injured for a month. Should be interested when he turns up with England at Arsenal's training ground this week

Posted by Wary Gooner on 03/01/2010

This is the third time in less than 4 years that an Arsenal player has had his leg broken. Is that just a coincidence?

No one thinks Shawcross went in with the intention of breaking Ramsey's leg. But how can you square the constant refrain of "kick Arsenal out of the game if you want a result" with the leg-breaking tackles of Diaby, Eduardo, and Ramsey?

Posted by OC on 03/01/2010

Indeed Whelan should be commended for helping Ramsey - he kept a level head at a difficult time for that I'm sure all at Arsenal are grateful.

But the rest of this article is tosh. There was no way that a shin high challenge would ever end well. Its easy to look at Arsenal's card count, but why don't you actually looked at how they were picked up.

Wenger does not bemoan committed challenges, if you bother to listen to what he says, that would be clear. This was a dangerous and unacceptable challenge.

Posted by simon on 03/01/2010

h3e went unbeaten without petit winterburn and Adams He had Pires, Bergkamp, and reyes Hardly cloggers Only tangible success?? you are symptomtaic of teh element who watch football
Shawcross should get a 10 game ban Minimum Wasnt teh type of player?? He broke jeffers leg I am told Watch Shawcross on youtube SYTHE through Adebayor (A plyer I have no time for) last year when the ball was out of play.. Yeah out of character..
with Any luck your team will be down where they belong in the next few seasons.. the .Trying to rationalise what happened is absurd

Posted by rellends on 03/01/2010

ban wenger for life. everything that's wrong with english football is all his fault. this is one of the biggest load of cobblers i have ever read. give shawcross a medal!

Posted by Arsedoctor on 03/01/2010

I agree this was an accident buy shawcross's tackle was reckless at best. He had lost the ball and dived
in. Ramsey's leg was broken halfway up his calf not
on his foot. That is high in anyone's book. People also forget that shawcross has previous. He broke Jeffers ankle a few years ago and put adebayor out for 6 weeks with a crunching tackle. We have to eliminate reckless lunging tackles from our game. Your feet should never leave the ground when you tackle. That way accidents like Ramsey won't happen.

Posted by RedandDread on 03/01/2010

As far as killing the English game-the only reason there is a huge bounty of TV money in the English game is because there are sides like Arsenal that nuetrals enjoy watching. Trust me a league of 20 Stoke City's would end being as popular as the SPL. Your game against Liverpool FC was one of , if not the worst game I have had the displeasure of watching this year.

I am a Jamaican and obviuosly have some desire for Stoke to do well as Ricardo Fuller is your main forward. Yet today, I wish you a swift and hasty return to where you belong-in the Champioship,

This absolutely shocking and biased article is so typical. I might even suggest that you were the absolute idiot giving Ramsey (seen on TV) the finger as he was lifted into the ambulance.

Anyway, at least you got a good stuffing.

AS regards to the Delap incident-it wasn't your team's 3rd similar injury in the last 4 years either. Three times seems more than bad luck.

Posted by Mike on 03/01/2010

That is just your opinion. I thought he is slow and a very dangerous player as his history shows.

Wenger said "Spare me the articles tomorrow about how nice Shawcross is because we had all that with Eduardo." How is that "disgusting and disrespectful"?

This artical shows that he has done this before
(link removed)

Which position is Stock in the fair play league?

Posted by Asmo on 03/01/2010

"Ryan Shawcross should hold his head high over the whole affair and Stoke City rightly take the moral high ground over all that has happened in the aftermath,"

Just laughable, kudos.

"His words, whilst naturally frustrated, were disgusting and disrespectful to Ryan"

Words you seemingly neglected to quote. Who needs them to cloud a character assassination though right?


"Hopefully the young England player will ignore the Frenchman "

Aha, the truth rears its ugly xenophobic head, and unwittinglyy exposes the true crux of the problem.


Posted by Anonymous on 03/01/2010

TRIPE!!!

what tackle did you see. Shawcross has a thuggish history here. Its not thefirst bone shattering he has done. Ask Franny Jeffers about him two seasons ago. Ask Adebayors from last season about his lunge on him.

You are pathetic.Shawcross should be ashamed to ever play again.


Get well soon Aaron!

Posted by Nnamdi Wakwe on 03/01/2010

This is what British BullDOg spirit has produced. England will never win anything by kicking more technically gifted players. Did you see Shawcross's tackle on Adebayor last season at the same ground or the same Shawcross on Francis Jeffers.

You speak of Arsenal's Dodgy Defending in a game where you let in three goals. Some one is deluded. You lost the game and you think because you have said you wish Ramsey well, you can distract us from how poor your team were?

Posted by Gooner10 on 03/01/2010

Yes I'm a Gooner so I'm not going to try to disagree with you, only to ask have you read Graham Poll's article in the Daily Mail titled "Ryan Shawcross tackle on Aaron Ramsey was no accident"? Ex-professionals aside, you would do well to consider an ex-ref's opinion.

Posted by Paul on 03/01/2010

Shawcross is a piece of scum. Putting on the fake tears fooled nobody. That's two broken legs to his credit (Jeffers being the other in case you've forgotten) plus putting Adebayor out for three weeks - how many players can claim to have broken two players' legs in three years? How many Arsenal players have ever broken one player's leg?
Shawcross is the kind of cowardly thug that has no place in the game. It's a crying shame that he's the best England have. What an indictment of the state our national game is in.
It's clear that cloggers like Stoke have no option but the long throw and the leg-breaking challenges, but how you can defend this gorilla is laughable.

Posted by Tom Beech on 03/01/2010

Absolutely spot on.

Ryan can, and should, keep his head held high. This is an absolutely terribly accident but it was just that; an accident.

It will be interesting to hear what Ramsey says when he eventually comments. In the meantime, all the best to him for a speedy and strong recovery.

As for Ryan, you could all see from his reaction that he was absolutely cut up afterwards. There was no intent whatsoever and I really feel for him. I hope he picks himself up and gets on with his career as it would be a crying shame to see it hinder his progress which now sees him in the England squad for this first time.

As for the Arse-nal fans who will say it was dirty, we can't tackle fairly etc etc I point you in the direction of 2 incidents below. Some people have short memories!!

edit - Unable to publish links but poster linked pictures to 2 high challenges in 2 different games by Gallas and Diaby - strangely enough against Bolton...

Tom

Posted by Jamo on 03/01/2010

Nothing more than a 50/50 ball and anyone who thinks differently clearly knows absolutely nothing about football.

Arsenal fans must be delighted that about the only person in the media to agree with their ridiculous views is the one and only Adrian Durham. That about sums the whole argument up really.

To be honest after this incident and the girly whining from Wenger and Arsenal fans I'm beginning to think the the best thing for football would be if these namby pamby clubs left the league and set up their own ballet inspired European dream division where they could travel abroad every other week for away games.

Ryan Shawcross is a top, top young defender who has a fantastic career ahead of him, an England call up was totally deserved and hopefully he will soon put this sad incident behind him.

All the best to Ramsey, an excellent young player who I am sure will come back stronger for it but also once he sees the video he will know that Ryan did not mean to injure him.

Posted by gus on 03/01/2010

get your facts straight, wenger never claimed shawcross was horrendous, only the tackle. from todays guardian Arséne Wenger says he doesn't believe in coincidence. Three horrifically broken legs in the space of four years would be enough to make most managers suspect something might be a little off. Wenger is right: there is a conspiracy against his team. But it's not overt nor clearly articulated; it comes from a cultural enmity rather than a personal one. Ever since a nationwide TV audience witnessed Wolves beat Honved on a pitch watered into a swamp by Stan Cullis in 1954 – through Charles Hughes ("we have nothing to learn from Brazil"), Terry Butcher with blood on his shirt and England's Brave John Terry – there has been a powerful lobby in English football following the premise that aggression and physical power can overcome superior technique. Wenger's Arsenal play in a way that is unusual even at the top level: no other Premier League team keeps the ball so jealously in midfield areas. All three catastrophic injuries have happened at away grounds – Sunderland, Birmingham and now Stoke – against teams with no recent history of playing in Europe, against, say, the ball-hogs of the Portuguese league. Arsenal are the only team they meet who keep the ball like this. Everyone who visits Premier League grounds will know the biggest cheer of the day is often for a heavy, disruptive tackle after a period of patient possession by the away team. The tackle by Ryan Shawcross wasn't high or carried out with studs showing, but it was excessively forceful, a statement-tackle, intended to assert his own - legitimate - physical power and his team's style of play. This kind of challenge happens to Arsenal far more often than other teams. They suffer more injuries as a result. It's a culture clash. Shawcross is also, in a far more minor way, a victim here, as is Tony Pulis as a coach from the same culture that teaches that the best way to combat superior ball retention is a traditional test of mettle.

Posted by wan on 03/01/2010

are you smoking something? moral high ground? This isnt shawcross first broken leg tackle by the way. He's done francis jeffers and almost adebayor last season. If that is cause for holding your head high. Then so be it. I guess the world should apologize to shawcross as he's the real victim here and blame arsenal for being too small, too fast and technical for shawcross. How there they right? It's the same as hitting some one while driving under the influence. You don't go out intentionally to do it but it happens and in court who is responsible? The driver or the innocent bystander? Or would they say he's unlucky wrong place at the wrong time

Posted by Paul N on 03/01/2010

bull!

Wenger is saying that these injuries are the result of teams always playing overly physical with Arsenal. No where is he saying that Shawcross tried to break Ramseys leg but he did mean to "get stuck in". 3 breaks and is just coincidence right?

Are you aware that he has injured quite a few players? is that just coincidence also? is it?

He may not be a bad player but he players like a cave man.

Posted by Dave on 03/01/2010

1. The referee has not admitted that it was ot a red card. Rory Delap has speculated that the referee only issued the red card after seeing the horrific injury.

2. Where on his shin did Shawcross 'tackle' Ramsey? I'd say about 6-8 inches off the ground. The ball was on the ground, so the tackle was 'uncontrolled' at very least.

3. Of course Shawcross did not mean to break Ramsey leg, or Franny Jeffers' leg or put Adebayor out for 3 games last season, it was a simple reckless tackle. Does that make it excusable?

4. Numerous cynical Arsenal fouls, err that'll be the Fabregas one at the end then, after he'd been hacked and played on seconds earlier. that doesn't make it excusable either, but I'm not sure how good your addition is.

5. 73 red cards in 12 years...in the PL table: OUTRAGEOUSLY that puts Arsenal in a SHOCKING mid-table position overall, well behind Bolton, Everton, Blackburn.

6. You seriously believe that challenge was acceptable? How do you have a platform?

Posted by ADFaye on 03/01/2010

Wenger, defending 11 Arsenal red cards in 37 matches. (In 2008)

"the passion and commitment of the English game. You have to ask yourself if you want to take that out of the game here. When I watch a Serie A game, I’m bored after five minutes. If you want totally clean football, you’ll get bored."


I'd be more than embarrassed if I were an Arsenal fan at the inane ramblings of an apparent madman of a manager. The dicourtesy he displaying to the whole of the English Premier League is making Arsenal FC a laughing stock.

Ryan Shawcross is totally innocent of any wrong doing in this matter other than being 50% part of the tackle which resulted in Ramsey's unfortunate injury. Fabio Capello sees no case to answer as doing most of the country outside of the Emirates.

I just thank God that Tony Pulis operates his club in a far less hysterical way and doesn't leave us looking like the laughing stock victims of the league in the way that Wenger does.

The man is a hypocrite

Posted by J.Webb on 03/01/2010

100% correct !! Wenger was and has been over the past 48 hours a complete and utter disgrace !!

Posted by Dave on 03/01/2010

Pulis and Wenger, chalk and cheese. One has no class.
Get well soon Aaron.

Posted by yohance douglas on 03/01/2010

are you living on another planet or what mate? seriously? were you watching the same game as everyone else or are you just trying to wind people up? first of all we are the damn team with the player with the broken leg, the third in fact. don't you believe the manager has a right to be livid! if you had a team with these injuries what would your reaction be? praising stoke? in fact Wenger has been quite reserved in his comment but understandably upset. now, you talk about arsenal of the 90's and invincibles, let me ask you, how many legs did we break mate? three broken legs in 4 years, how many teams have that record, or deserve it? you loony! the English game needs to be refined, no one is against good hard challenges, including Mr. Wenger, but wild reckless challenges kill players careers. frankly, most teams cant cope with our style of play without this cave man style of football. you should be writing for NFL mate not this sport.

Posted by Delia Smith on 03/01/2010

Good point, particularly about Pulis having a sight more dignity than Wenger. Oddly enough, I think Arsenal's moral degeneration didn't start with Wenger but with his predecessor's best-ever signing, Bergkamp. Denis and Arsene have a lot in common - very good at football, pretty much worthless human beings.

What's emetic about Arsenal is the way that the club has clearly organised a PR campaign, working on the metropolitan mass media, relying on empty heads lie Adrian Durham, old media whores like Bob Wilson, and desiccated quote-mongers like Patrick Barclay. How much longer must we wait for the profound insights of Tim Lovejoy?

I think everybody hates what happened to Ramsay, and wishes him the best. For me, it shows, again, that most really serious injuries are not caused by deliberate fouls but by speed, intensity and sheer ill-luck.

Posted by Graham on 03/01/2010

What a moronic interpretation of the incident. Wenger nor anyone else has come out and said that Shawcross acted deliberately. I too have heard and read the views of the ex-players turned TV and radio pundits and many have noted the recklessness of the tackle. That's the real issue.

Not for the first time, Shawcross has demonstrated an aptitude for steaming into challenges showing a complete disregard for the safety of both himself and his opponent. Nicklas Bendtner, who was as close as anyone to the incident, summed it up perfectly when saying that the Stoke player was 'out of control'. Instead of attacking Arsene Wenger, try and focus on the real issue then maybe you'll realise your claim that Shawcross is 'as innocent as Ramsey' is totally ludicrous.

You seem to conveniently ignore the angelic defender's past record that includes a needless lunge at Adebayor in the corresponding fixture last year. He was lucky though as that display of 'innocence' only sidelined him for a few weeks.

Posted by Toni on 03/01/2010

Let's be senitive, a young man, Aaron Ramsey broke his leg and this may lead to the end of his carrer. Our wishes should go to him.

Posted by ChampionRD on 03/01/2010

Why are you commenting on YOUR team? Feel aggrieved quietly and let others that can react dispassionately to the situation.

The bias towards Stoke and animus towards Arsenal is ridiculous. I'm not even an Arsenal supporter, but you, and so many others in the press, completely are missing the point.

It does not matter if he meant to shatter Ramsey's leg, what matters is he did. And for what? A 50:50 (more like a 75:25) in the middle of the pitch. Why go in so hard and recklessly without the capacity to pull out in even a small way. He went in far harder than necessary. Some said he was just trying to 'nick' the ball away . . . with that level of force? Come on.

And of course it was a red card. #1 reason for a red card: A serious foul - a violent foul. I assume you agree it was a foul. Definition of violent: acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force. Exactly what that was.

And for those who say he's a "good lad", he did break Francis Jeffers ankle.

Posted by ChampionRD on 03/01/2010

And he did injure Adebayor's ankle. in a completely unnecessary foul outside the lines.

Posted by Mike on 03/01/2010

This isn't the first time Shawcross has broken someones leg. Either he can't tackle properly (dangerous in the modern game) or it was intentional (unacceptable in any sport). I'll let you decide which it is to be.

Posted by mark on 03/01/2010

Ok, Arsenal fan here. I understand the general feeling being expressed in this article and to an extent agree with some points made, however it generally is an over reaction and an unfair analysis to things said and actions made in the heat of the moment.

At the end of the day no player goes in to a challenge to break someones leg, but each player must also be responsible for the risk involved in the challenge, and without a doubt it was a full blooded high risk challenge and was rightfully punished for those reasons.

Shawcross is a good player and a good bloke by all accounts, and I dont think he should be victimised over the incicdent but to say he's an innocent party is naive and obviously wrong and to say he should hold his head up high over the affair is a strange opinion, yes how he and the other stoke players reacted was commendable (your view of the arsenal players actions was ridiculous) but doesn't detract from the incident itself or its consequences.

Posted by carlosthegooner on 03/01/2010

would you like to mention Shawcrosses previous? The terrible tackle on Adebayor as he retrieved the ball? The assault on Jeffers which lead to your coach stating 'he's not that kind of player'? I have no idea why you think tackling over and not touching the ball classes as a 50/50 challenge but like i will be biased towards arsenal, i respect your support for your team and players. But Shawcross now has serious form which is down his tackling, probably in moments of duress. I'm not saying he's a bad player, far from it, it's just something I saw paul Hart say yesterday about how the art of tackling is going from the game. Perhaps taking him out of the firing line for a few months and getting him some o2o tackling coaching so that he is less likely to do this again would help? 3 bad injuries in 3 years to players should tell you that there is a problem, but one that can be rectified. unless of course you want to see a) it happen again or b) shawcross being a shadow of his former self

Posted by Parker on 03/01/2010

Lots of interesting points you brought up although the basis for your argument seems to be based on an outdated perspective of what football is all about..."full blooded purveyors of the English game"....
"a physical contest as you would expect".
What Wenger actually implied was that teams lacking in skill approach games against Arsenal in a more physical manner. This increases the chance of injury. Shawcross has what, broken 2 legs so far in his career and maimed Adebeyor?
For a reasoned unbiased discusion why dont you watch and post the following:
"I highly recommend that you check out the Sunday Supplement discussion featuring among others, Times journalist Patrick Barclay."

And as you didn't bother I will wish Ramsey a speedy recovery and hope that he is able to play again.

Posted by amit on 03/01/2010

well, what you wrote is more or less correct. but i wud insist you to watch the whole match again & find out who fouled more & that whose were more cynical.. i agree, the tackle didn't look malicious at all but doesn't it shows the type of football you play? in the 1st half, it seemed as if stoke were playing ping pong or something.. no desire to play football.. and isn't it the same Shawcross who 'ACCIDENTALLY' broke Jeffers' ankle some while ago ?? surely he didn't meant that too!!!!!!

Posted by lets all be sorry for shawcross on 03/01/2010

did you see the whole wenger interview? did he single out shawcross as a dirty player? NO. he said that one mistimed tackle that broke ramsey's leg was horrible, not shawcross as a person.

And pulis was the one getting defensive abt shawcross when wenger did not even mention him. he was even angrier than wenger. did wenger blame stoke and only stoke? no.
so now wenger cant show his anger after 3 leg breaks in 5 years. he's supposed to be all smiley?

If you read the papers, no one's blaming shawcross, titles splash across are defending him. Almost everyone in england is defending him. but no, still lets feel sorry for him and tell him to hold his head up high for that strong tackle(yes there wasnt intent, we get it!).

And here I'm thinking it's ramsey who should be sympathize for, with a broken leg, bad memories, a year out, not knowing if he'll get little niggles along the way,if he's going to improve or go downhill from here. still, poor old shawcross eh!

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/01/2010

Appreciate all the comments, largely constructive, as for the idiots sending abusive ones, try and argue properly and your comments will be posted..

Back to the subject though - A lot of the Gooners are saying that this is the third time in however many years etc - one of my points was that the anger behind those seemed to be directed solely at Shawcross, which is wrong.

I really DO wish the lad a speedy recovery and would also be very interested in hearing his version of events having had time to think and watch it all back.

Posted by B26 on 03/01/2010

Arsenal fans you need to get your head out of the clouds

First of all, Shawcross broke Jeffers ankle in a 50/50 challenge, 2 years ago. He's had 1 red card in his professional career, and anyone who actually studies the freeze frames of the tackle will see Ramseys leg had already started to go before Shawcross went for the ball.

I cannot believe some of you morons are suggesting because a clean player has made a late challenge, twice, without intent, should therefore not play for England. It is one of the worst and most rediculous things I've heard in all the years I've been watching football. He shouldn't play for the national side because he un-intentinally injured an Arsenal player? Heaven forbid! Get a grip. What happened to Ramsey was something no one likes to see... it's something that unfortunatley happens in football. Shawcross is arguabley the best young defender in the entrire country... the ENTIRE media population, even Lee Dixon ex-Arsenal said it was un-inentional.

Posted by Parker on 03/01/2010

Mr. Whittaker. Perhaps we read differently but to me it seems that the anger is directed at the philosophy of 'in their faces' football. I agree 100% that Shawcross did not go into the tackle with intent to injure, it was however out of control.
I have lost count of the number of times that an Arsenal substitute is 'welcomed' by a defender, 'just to let him know the defender is about'.

The style of play that is being critisised is a characteristic of specific teams that everyone can name. A characteristic developed by the managers of those teams.
I think everone enjoys a hard fought game but surely everyone also enjoys the skills needed to make a good tackle, not listen to excuses about being a little late in the tackle.

Posted by Anon on 03/01/2010

Peter Mason do you even know shawcross' track record that was his first red card. I mean that defiantly matches the stereotype of a dirty player.

Posted by yogiguru on 03/01/2010

hey, let's not fight or complain. let's wait for another incident, perhaps this time to fuller or thomas sorenson. let's just let the lads play the way they want, leaving in their wake a melange of broken bones and crutches..... yeah that's it!

the point is these reckless challenges cannot be ignored and they need to be punished.
i agree with most, that shawcross didnt mean to break his leg, but he certainly meant to get that ball no matter the cost. it's "do or die football."

but as graham poll put it, referees need to prevent these incidents by reading the tempo of the game and dealing with bad tackles early. this "play on" mentality is what leads to a crescendo of brutal tackles.in fact, arsenal deserved at least 2 clear penalties in that match! the ref was awful!

so stoke people and Mr. blogger, how about a little sensitivity, common sense and logic here?

go on you arsenal!

Posted by ADFaye on 03/01/2010

Are you seriously so brain washed by Wenger that you think your own perception of the incident outweighs what the majority of the country thinks? You're all mad!

If you take a moment to peruse ANY football forum from ANY prem club other than Arsenal you will see the 'neutral' consensus for yourselves.

Wenger and some of you fans are fast becoming an absolute laughing stock.

Get on with it i say.

Posted by B26 on 03/01/2010

The poor innocent Arsenal that had a player sent off for elbowing Sorenson in the face last season.

Or the poor innocent Arsenal that's captain should of been sent of against Stoke for 2 very late challenges with more malice in both than any tackle Shawcross has ever done.

Fabregas was a disgrace to your club the way he was at the Britannia Stadium on Saturday. An utter, utter disgrace.

Oh, and the poor innocent Arsenal who's players once ganged around Ruud Van Nistelrooy when he missed a penalty?

Your clubs a shambles from the manager to the fans. Happy clapping morons.

Posted by David Matley on 03/01/2010

Graham Poll is the prat who says realistically that the bigger teams including Arsenal get preferential treatment from referees. Which is obviously true with the contrasting treatment given to Gallas and Shawcross, one a 50/50 ball and the other a premeditated over the ball tackle. This poor little Arsenal rubbish spouted by Wenger and their deranged supporters is aimed at influencing referees in their favour. Considering the premeditated dirty tackles all came from Arsenal and Fabregas in particular it is quite rich.

Posted by Matt on 03/01/2010

shawcross is 100% innocent.
how can you all blame him? clash of players and ramsey got his studs stuck in the ground.

Open your eyes !

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/01/2010

Saw ex Arsenal player Stewart Robson before telling Wenger to be careful what he says.. Also more support from Ryan's England colleagues in the shape of Rooney and Milner too. The support keeps coming in, and Wenger looking more and more like an idiot..

Posted by ADFaye on 03/01/2010

Pundits are starting to roll their eyes at some of this hilarity.

I accept you will support your lifelong club as we will Shawcross, but make no mistake, if our players misbehave beyond the rules of the game their biggest critics are Stoke fans.

This situation is exzceptional for us in terms of unity as every single fan has watched and re-watched the footage and we unanimously agree about the lack of intent.

We do, however, convey our best wishes to Aaron which is far more than was evident by your players in particular Fabregas and Campbell.

If they had been Stoke players ignoring their colleague for the benefit of a card they'd be lynched by the club and the fans.

Food for thought folks

Posted by Stokie Rich on 03/01/2010

Accidents happen. Get over it.

Posted by daz on 03/01/2010

im not going into the debate too much over the tackle on saturday. Whinger is renowned for not seeing what his own players do. There was something on tv earlier today saying that Arsenal shouldnt go on too much about other teams tackles on his players and continued to show many many bad tackles by Arsenal. Last seasons game have you all forgotten about the late tackle on Sorro as he was picking the ball up? Have your forgotten about Adebayors tackle earlier on Shawcross before the incident off the pitch afterwards. The thing that really sticks in my mind is you seem to not to see some of your tackles on sat. Look at the late one on huth after about 6 minutes...you only just see it as he clears the ball. Look at the two Febregas tackles from behind on about 40 mins and in injury time. Look at Cambells tackle on Fuller. All bad tackles and all could of ended up with simular injuries to Aarons. Everyone who isnt an Gooner is backing Ryan. Look at the pictures showing his leg pre contact

Posted by Jamo on 03/01/2010

The references to Ryan "having form" are laughable and clearly show a lack of footballing knowledge from fans who are happy to post comments on websites but probably rarely attend "live" matches.

Lets look at his "previous" shall we?

The foul on Franny Jeffers three years ago was a very simple tackle that he got booked for; the ref saw it and it didn't look anything at all to anyone in the ground. The problem with Jeffers is that unfortunately he is a footballer who could get injured dreaming about playing football.

As for the one on Adebeyor no one could say Ryan didn't catch him but I also notice (as they didn't last season) no one-eyed Gooner has mentioned the Bruce Lee esque attack that Adebeyor did on Ryan earlier in the same game. Best not to mention that though eh?

Anyone with a brain knows that BOTH players went into the challenge in identical fashions and sadly Ramsey came off worse.

Grow up Wenger and grow up you Gooners, failing that, how about the ballet?

Posted by Skiptomalou on 03/01/2010

Did Wenger actually see the challenge? It was on the opposite side of the pitch to the dugouts. As we know, "I deed not zee it" is his usual response. Perhaps he has recently been to Specsavers?

From one who was actually nearer than Wenger, it was a definate 50/50. Lets have a bit of honesty Arsene and to 99% of Arsenal sheep - learn to see with your eyes not your Arsene tinted spectacles.

Posted by MK on 03/01/2010

Whether Shawcross meant it is immaterial, it was a VERY bad tackle which deserved a red card. Late, high and with more force than would have been required to win the ball, in a situation where he had no chance to win the ball without taking out the player.

He has a history of bad tackles and the only reason he is being defended is because he is English and you only prove my point by vilifying Gallas for a challenge that wasn't as bad and didn't injure anyone.

Posted by Jamie Santiago on 03/01/2010

How dare ypou say Shawcross was innocent in the challenge? He had a heavy touch and got beat to the ball and went in RECKLESSLY!!! For you to say his challenge was not reckless is an insult to the game. He could of pulled back but went straight through Ramsey's leg instead, and could cost him his career. We all know the English game is way more PHYSICAL then any other league, but when is it enough. My last comment to this is if it was ROONEY there with is leg broken the FA would have already stepped in!!!!!!!!

Posted by Kimi on 03/01/2010

what a joke of an excuse!! I think the below para says it best "If I can liken to it something else it's speeding. The young guy in his car who goes out, thinking he's Johnny Invincible, until he careers around a corner too fast and mows down a child. He didn't mean to, but he did it, and he is responsible. "I didn't meant to run the kid over" and "He's not that kind of driver" aren't acceptable excuses in a courtroom so spare me the mealy-mouthed crap over Shawcross"

the problem is with the culture of physical football in england where constant fouling and physical play is met with approval. Chelsea also play phsycial with but are NOT dangerous or malicious in their tackles like Stoke.

and how come you dont mention the stoke fans who were abusing ramsey when he was stretchered off??? a minority no doubt but those fans should be ashamed of themselves. They could learn from Whelan.

Posted by mark on 03/02/2010

Great article,

Wenger, and Arse fans just a load of whinging idiots
They dont like it up em do they

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/02/2010

Mick Dennis Comments - I HAVE seen unbroadcast footage that should be called The Shawcross Redemption. It exonerates Ryan Shawcross and changed my mind about the challenge which shattered Aaron Ramsey’s leg.
I was about to go on Sky News to berate Stoke’s Shawcross when I was shown a Sky Sports clip. Neither the BBC nor Sky have broadcast this footage because of a horrific close-up of Ramsey’s shin snapping.
It is ground-level coverage, from the side. It proves that Shawcross was looking at the ball, and trying to hoof it with his laces. Ramsey nipped in first and toe-ended the ball away. The Arsenal player’s momentum then carried him into the terrible collision.
There does not have to be intent for it to be a foul. An accident can be an offence if there is sufficient recklessness. But I do not think there was. So I do not even think it was a foul, much less a red-card offence or a symptom of Stoke’s malevolence.

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/02/2010

Also reports coming out that Ramsey himself admits there was no intent - how about that eh?

Posted by William on 03/02/2010

Arsenal staff & players are disgraceful as always. Sigh

Posted by Jamo on 03/02/2010

"Also reports coming out that Ramsey himself admits there was no intent - how about that eh?"

Sshh, don't mention anything like that. Wenger and these Goon's can't take the truth!

Posted by Sammy on 03/02/2010

These writers just shock me with their selfishness!!!This leg break can happen to the team you support as well!!!Ramsey is just as important to Arsenal and Wales just as Shawcross to Stoke and England, why blame Wenger for this in fact you should sympathize with him.Am disgusted with articles like this!!What if this happened to Rooney or Terry, would these people still be writing biased articles like this????

Editor response - It happened to Delap, exactly the same, yet no aggravation or blame from Pulis, just an acceptance that these things happen in contact sports..

Posted by Brummie on 03/02/2010

I agree with the article. Where were Ramsays team mates when he was down? I also only saw Stoke players go to his aid.

Posted by grim on 03/02/2010

it's obvious to me that the Arsenal team are targeted for the type of football they play.they are a very tactical team who only know how to play with the ball @ their feet.this makes it very difficult for the opposing team when the ball is constantly being passed around them.before even entering onto the pitch teams like stoke,Bolton come prepared with the mind set of playing rough & the result of that is quite evident.three broken legs in the past five years.that has not happened to one other team in the league, "EVER".so that clearly states that this teams is being targeted,as for Ryan tackle on Aaron.for me it was malicious & you could tell based on how the stoke team were playing overly physical & got carried away with it resulting in a very very bad injury to Ramsey.How ironic is it that he gets a call immediately after breaking a players leg.

Posted by Jason Boon on 03/02/2010

James, the point is the way Shawcross went in for the challenge - reckless. It is a very strange coincidence the same man set Francis Jeffers and Adebayor out.

There is a difference between being physical and being downright violent in the way you play football. Chelsea is one such side.

It all boils down to the footballing culture in England. It has got to change.

Editor Comment - Ryan's tackle was not violent, it was committed, there is a difference. Every pro, past and present aside from Wenger and Wilson have supported Ryan and the challenge..

Posted by Kamal on 03/02/2010

Intent is unimportant. He went in too hard. How do I know that? He kicked a player's leg off. That's too hard. Shawcross isn't a monster but he's a reckless player that likes to make statement tackles.

Posted by Jono on 03/02/2010

Oh my gosh, let's just stand back and let Arsenal win every single ball and then kick our backsides, and then let's pat each other's back and say we've done all we could to stop them. Pft. Get over yourselves. It's football and anything can happen. People even get struck by lightning before in matches.

Posted by seun on 03/02/2010

I am bit disappointed about some comments here.Let me ask the writer if a french or spanish palyer happens to break Rooney's leg what will you say?good job lad?why not let see things the way they are and not been sentimental about things.3 legs in 5 years because they are not english.when beckgam toe was broken even the heavens knows.if the english pree contiunes like this they will hamper england quest for honours.Are this players not human?Do you hate arsenal so much cos there are few english?and beside how many of them(English Player) can boast of the class arsenal got?Encouring the guy Shawcross is a bad omen and he needs work on his tackles.Accident you may say but they can be prevented.If some people got nothing good to say of the poor guy then they should just shut up.it hurts.If ramsey was to be a relative what will you have done in that situation.be cobstructive it is just the good of the game.

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/02/2010

Yet another previous Stoke hater, Derek McGovern from the Mirror sticking up for Ryan and lambasting Wenger..

"As for Sky and their craven decision not to replay the Ramsey incident, per-le-a-s-e. Their lily-liveredness allowed Wenger's disgraceful assault on Shawcross's character to go unchallenged.

People are shown dying in Haitian and Chilean earthquakes, but Sky deem a sporting collision too horrifying to screen. Who was the producer? Noddy? What has gone unnoticed amid the Ramsey outcry is Arsenal's theft of three points at the Britannia. Shawcross's tackle was never a red card - it wasn't even a foul - while the penalty decision was a sick joke. Funny how Wenger seemed unwilling to pontificate on that"

Posted by Ruben on 03/02/2010

Oh grow up .... If it was Shawcross who broke his leg, Wenger wouldn't have seen anything (again). If you say Shawcross should have pulled out of the tackle, the shouldn't Ramsey have done the same?

Posted by Beer Belly on 03/02/2010

triffic article

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/02/2010

3 times Stoke have played Arsenal this season and only one booking - and that was for an Arsenal player...

As for those quoting Ryan's tackle on Adebayor last season, did they 'see' the kung fu kick Shawcross received from the very same player in that game beforehand or acknowledge the fact it was Arsenal who had a player sent off for violent conduct?

Posted by stark001 on 03/02/2010

wake up gunners!!! you fools.. injuries r part and parcels of the game.. the one u should blame is the physicist of the team.. chelsea n man u, n also lverpool also play attractive football, n weaker team always tried the physical approach, but they dont get injured often.. heck, even ronaldo when he's with man u got more kicks n tackles than all of the arsenal players got, but i dont rmmber him getting severely injured like that.. its rubbish for evryone to treat shawcross like that.. evryone who calls for him to be suspended until ramsey recovers are overboard.. shawcross is also a great young talent, and suspending him for a long period will deter his improvements.. my advice to the gooners, buff up ur players, coz they all are physically very weak, except for vermaelen, coz he's good.. if u take a look at the gunners during when they were winning things, u noticed that all of the arsenal player are very big, tall and physically sound..

Posted by Anon on 03/02/2010

I'm sure no one will really read this response to someone who said Wenger was a hypocrite but

"the passion and commitment of the English game. You have to ask yourself if you want to take that out of the game here. When I watch a Serie A game, I’m bored after five minutes. If you want totally clean football, you’ll get bored." - Wenger

Let's see, he meant that the English game's physical approaches are a real joy, NOT BREAKING LEGS. Arsenal had 11 cards and 0 broken legs on 2008, does that mean that Wenger is a hypocrite? Yes? Go ahead and win the Nobel Prize son, I'm sure you'd be proud of yourself.

Back on-topic, please stop STEREOTYPING ARSENAL FANS for the love of God and everything good. Seriously, I accept that it didn't have intent (Jamo, please read some English Comprehension books because there have been more than 20 people saying it didn't have malicious intent) but Shawcross isn't "as innocent as Ramsey". If anything he's half-guilty, or a third of it at least.

Posted by jp on 03/02/2010

Great article,

Wenger, and Arse fans just a load of whinging idiots
They dont like it up em do they


Posted by reb3llist on 03/02/2010

Oh and seriously, why is everyone ignoring the fact that A) Wenger's comments (when quoted) are not disgraceful or disrespectful to Shawcross and B) It's very human for Wenger to get at least a bit livid because it's the third broken leg in 5 years' time.

I mean if someone broke his leg for the first time from a challenge, I'm sure Wenger would respond as Pulis did for Delap and I would also let bygones be bygones (I don't know about the Diaby incident, could somebody go check on that?) but please, if three different people kicked you real hard on the back thrice, would you still be calm? Patient people would, most wouldn't. I myself don't know what I'd do if I were kicked thrice like that.

And besides, I do hate overly-physical sides who depend on roughing the opponents up but really, sometimes it's all that that team can do to survive so I can't blame them. If I have any flaws in my arguments Mr. Whittaker, feel free to correct them, I'm sure as hell it's almost flawless in logic.

Posted by eze on 03/02/2010

Im an arsenal fan through and through and must tell you its a really bad challenge but the poor stoke lad never meant that and I couldnt help but have pity on him.the ref did a good thing sending him off, not because its worth sending off, but because had he remained in the game i wonder how well he could have concentrated.
Sorry to aron and a speedy recovery and to wenger, maybe we need shawcross?

Posted by reb3llist on 03/02/2010

On another note, if Arsenal players also did do rough plays, feel free to badmouth them the way I am criticizing Shawcross now; however that would be irrelevant wouldn't it? That'd just be pointing fingers (which I don't mind). EVERY team in the EPL must have played rough at least once; pulling shirts, pushing people, whatever.

But Bolton, Blackburn, Derby, Liverpool, Arsenal rarely broke legs (not saying Stoke does it on a regular basis). Blaming Arsenal of rough play is the same as avoiding the question, Ryan Shawcross' poor challenge. Sure Bendtner might have played a part in it but the player himself practically LUNGED at him.

If you bullied a bully back until he became a depressed, you can't just tell the teacher he also bullied you so it was OK; it is highly irrelevant. No matter what, Shawcross broke Ramsey's leg and Stoke played very rough. Doesn't matter if Bendtner pushed everyone.

Take note I am not even putting Shawcross' track record of injuries into account in my post

Posted by Bala on 03/02/2010

Fine...so Wenger has turned an original English side into one full of 'foreigners' playing 'carpet football'. That's his choice. And he has not won trophies since his rugged players have left. That's his burden as well. Wenger has no reason to heed to your suggestion to change his philosophy.

Now the idiots who say Arsenal is too fast for them to tackle, and somehow trying to pin the fouls on Arsenal players' speed - that is what gets my goat. If you are not talented enough, that's your problem. You cannot blame that on Arsenal's skill.

If you decide to play a physical game against a team that supposedly cannot stomach such tactics, at least be man enough to deal with the consequences. Or be skillful enough to not use such tactics.

Editor Comment - Turn that last para around to Arsenal..

Posted by observer on 03/02/2010

Brilliant piece telling it exactly the way it is.

You could probably count the number of matches attended by the idiot glory-hunting commenters here on the fingers of one hand.

Stoke did everything right - Arsenal are classless.

Posted by kverin4 on 03/02/2010

James and other Stoke supporters,

As a defender myself (and Arsenal supporter), I will do my best to take as much of a balanced approach as possible. I ask that all of us do the same (Arsenal fans included).

First things first, perhaps it was indeed a 50/50 ball. Ultimately, Ramsey got to the ball quicker than Shawcross. Shawcross, therefore, came in late and caught Ramsey's leg. This is a foul ... period. That's pretty much the definition of a foul. Had Ramsey been late in the same exact tackle, resulting in an injury to Shawcross, the same would/should be said about the tackle.

Editor Comment - Agreed, with you so far, his being quicker drew a foul and free kick..

I do not believe, even for a moment, that Shawcross intended to cause this much damage to the young Ramsey.

Additionally, I will concede that Fabregas was deserving of at least a yellow card for the late tackle from behind in the second half. In my opinion, it was classless and horrific ... and I'm glad there was no injury.

... continued

Posted by kverin4 on 03/02/2010

... continued

I am not the type of Arsenal supporter that thinks that the team is angelic enough to "cast the first stone", if you will. We do our fair share of tackles, and some of them are not pretty. All Arsenal fans need to get off their high horse.

That said, the best way to get under Arsenal's skin is widely known ... disrupt their rhythm. Almost all teams do this, with varying levels of success. Early in the game, I though Stoke did this quite well. Personally, I have no problem with this style of play, provided that the players are protected.

Regarding the behavior of the Arsenal players directly after the injury, most of them were visibly upset, some in a state of shock. Some were angered by the outcome. As Arsenal fans should refrain from crucifying Shawcross, please refrain from crucifying Arsenal players' reactions, some of whom were witnessing an horrific injury for the third time.

And please stop citing previous Arsenal fouls as any sort of justification.

Editor Comment - On your last point, gladly, if only your fellow fans would follow suit instead of googling every foul committed by Shawcross..

Posted by Anonymous on 03/02/2010

Maybe it was a bad tackle...but this happens. Football is a contact sport. And yes, I think diving is a much bigger problem in the game than injuries like this. How often does this sort of injury really happen?

I do think Wenger needs to have a little more class in handling certain issues. And while he does have Arsenal playing "attractive" football, you don't win games by passing all day. You need goals and tough defense. I'm not saying that you need to do what Shawcross did (not that he meant to break Ramsey's leg), but a player like Shawcross would probably help arsenal win something.

For example, look and United with players like Fletcher, Vidic, and Evra. All very tough defensively. Or even Chelsea with the likes of Essien, and Terry (I know, he's an idiot). These are players who, according to Wenger, play "anti-football". They also win trophies....

So basically, it was just a bad tackle. He got the red! get on with it. I hope Ramsey can recover and play well in the future.

Posted by Sajjad on 03/02/2010

To the writer - you have no clue on what you talking about. Ofcourse, Shawcross had no intention to break Aarons leg. I actually feel bad for him because i can imagine the guilt he could be feeling. But for you to come out and critisise Arsenal and Wenger is BS! Infact, the fault should go to Opposition managers like Pullis, because they set out their side to play tough with Arsenal, and hence the reason for Shawcross to go in rough like that. I dont think you would see an Arsenal player going into a challenge like that. There are other ways to win the ball. And of course you are a Stoke fan, dont you love tackles flighing in and resorting to long throws to be your number one assist!

Editor Comment - Throws are not our number 1 assist actually but don't let that get in the way of a good arguement. We have played you 3 times this season and only one yellow card aside from this and that was for Arsenal and remind me who it was that got red carded last season for violent conduct again? much like your gutless manager, you see what you want to see

Posted by Phil on 03/02/2010

50/50? How is a tackle 50/50 when one player is on his feet and the other slides in with a sweeping leg? Without the injury, it was a serious foul on Shawcross. It was a reckless hard challenge that turned utterly unfortunate. I agree there was no intention to injure and the outcome was the worse possible outcome of a hard challenge, but to classify it as 50/50 seems like an effort to draw fault away from Shawcross. he was responsible for what was a recklessly hard challenge and a foul in any book. Perhaps not truly a red card, but when you go in with enough force to snap a player leg in two, one wonders.

Editor Comment - Arsenal do it plenty, do you not think fabregas' challenge on Shawcross or on Pugh at the end were dangerous, both done with enough force to break someone's leg..

Posted by jimbeam on 03/02/2010

And the most interesting thing about Stoke is long throws. LOL. LONG THROWS.

Editor Comment - and yet you still can't defend them?

Those long throws for our second and third goals against you when we knocked you out the cup were good weren't they...wait a minute...

Posted by nigel on 03/02/2010

You arsenal fans are a bunch of petty whiners.You cry everytime your players get hit or a leg broken.Its a contact sport show where you are taught to let players pass you because they have prestige or are more skilled than you.You should be more embarrassed your players focus so much on being pretty and passing and forget they have to tackle and hard.No one wants to see someone get hurt but to say the leagues should do something to protect players with more skill is laughable

Posted by Jun on 03/02/2010

This is one of the most unconvincing article I have read in regards to this season.

Stoke City FC belongs in Championship at best. Believe me, there is a reason why Stoke is NOT playing Champions League football.

It is true that Arsenal did have lots of red cards during Vieira era but you should really check to see why Arsenal got those reds. Do some research.

Why are you rationlizing Shawcross' tackle? It was a HORRIBLE one. Players like him is the reason why England national team haven't gone close to winning ANYTHING in a LONG time.

If English FA had ANY kind of standard, JT would have been dropped from English National Team, not just from the captaincy.

But back to the point, I do agree with you, however, about couple of Stoke City players looking after Aarom Ramsey, preventing him from looking at his broken leg. It was a class act.

To my point, if you really want Stoke to be as anywhere nearly as good as Arsenal, you should be criticizing your sides' tactics.

Editor Comment - You seem to be under the impression we want to be like Arsenal? As for blamingplayers like Shawcross for England not winning anything, I would look a little closer to home at the team not bringing through nearly as much English talent as it should, concentrating on foreigners, THAT is why England are hampered..

Posted by aaron on 03/02/2010

You are a disgrace. Do you really believe that Shawcross is 'as innocent as Ramsey in the affair.'?
Yes, we can all agree that Shawcross did not intend to break Ramsey's leg. I'm sure he also did not intend to break Jeffers' or Adebayor's. But, as the old saying goes, 'Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye.' Perhaps, hopefully, he has now learned his lesson and will clean up his game, not go into late challenges dangerously.
There is more to innocence or guilt than intent. Shawcross is not innocent. Because it is a 50/50 challenge does not absolve one or the other of guilt, it does not leave play open without consequence.

Editor Comment - So we shouldn't have any tackling anymore then? What has happened to the English game that you can no longer go in hard to win a ball, it's what the game was built on, it's what every player knows and expects - how the hell can you condemn any player going into a 50/50 challenge, it's madness

Posted by yaks on 03/02/2010

This is one of the biased articles i have ever read on this website. Its not fair at all.
People should appreciate that football unlike baseball, is a game of skill and nothing less.

If shawcross' challenge is fair to you, may be it is because it was on Ramsey and not Rooney or Lampard.

I am not impressed with your write up.

Editor Comment - If you really think Football is a game of skill and nothing else then you really don't understand football in the slightest..

Posted by gaymakingidsare on 03/02/2010

ChampionRD: "It does not matter if he meant to shatter Ramsey's leg, what matters is he did. And for what? A 50:50 (more like a 75:25) in the middle of the pitch. Why go in so hard and recklessly without the capacity to pull out in even a small way. He went in far harder than necessary. Some said he was just trying to 'nick' the ball away . . . with that level of force? Come on."

This is correct.

If I run a stop sign and smash a pedestrian, it was an "accident" and I didn't mean to kill them, but it was my responsibility to not be reckless.

Editor Comment - Once again, a stupid example, if there was a game called go out and occasionally run into traffic and get hit by cars then the pedestrian would expect the possibility given the running nature of his game. Football is a contact sport, Shawcross didn't mow him down unsuspectingly in the street, they put on their boots and their shin pads and they tried to beat each other.

Posted by TheImposter on 03/02/2010

The idea that Wenger or Arsenal fans think Shawcross went in with malicious intent to injure Ramsey is a straw man. No one has suggested any such thing. I ask you to count the number of column inches dedicated to "Poor Ryan" and compare it to the number devoted to "Poor Aaron". The English press's coverage of this story has been shameful, absolutely shameful.

Editor Comment - had Wenger not come out with the comments he had, he wouldn't have once again made himself and Arsenal a target. Had he been more dignified the reporting of the incident would have been different. I can understand the frustration with the history but that isn't all down to Ryan Shawcross..

Posted by Michael Baccus on 03/02/2010

Of course Shawcross was distraught!! How could anyone who saw the result, especially the person involved not be distraught. The truth is however that its not his reaction that was important, but the action, and i have heard professionals of the game condemn that action. 3 major injuries in 5 years should tell you all you need to know. the injury is a result of how less talented teams play arsenal, physically trying to intimidate them and its this play that is hurting the game, not the quick strike passing of wenger's style which is awesome to watch. the league needs to do something about this physical style of play before more players are lost. we can only hope that an incredibly talented 19 year old has a career in the future that lives up to his promise. this is NOT shawcross's first incident. players causing injury should lose as many games as the injured. hmm wonder what happen then. the call up to England was a disgrace and bad form

Editor Comment - 3 injuries in 5 years, were they all down to Ryan Shawcross? No. Yet all the comments go on about it like they were, is that fair? No

Posted by Danny Schrader on 03/02/2010

Good article. Of course Stoke played rough, how would you play against Arsenal? Shawcross mistimed a challenge, it is unfortunate but it happens.

And as an Arsenal fan i can still say Stoke's response to the injury was much more dignified than Arsenals.

Editor Comment - Thanks for the honesty, the behaviour of the Arsenal players was really out of order, their team mate needed them

Posted by Drew on 03/02/2010

James,
Most people agree that there was no intent and most people agree it was a 50/50. But either way, it was still an awful foul. I'm sure Shawcross is a great kid, but quite frankly, it was still a terrible foul and deserved a red card.
And really, the argument there was no intent? Of course there was no intent. Shawcross isn't a crazy person. You hear all of these drunk driving stories when people are the nicest people in the world but they go and have a few drinks, get behind the wheel, and end up killing someone. Certainly they didn't mean to kill someone, but for one moment, they were reckless.
If you want to pick out someone to praise on Stoke, look at Glen Whelan. Cause he realized how serious of an injury Shawcross committed. He stayed with Ramsey until the medical staff came.

Editor Comment - Agreed in part Drew but again, the drink drive example is not fair as it's not a level playing field. Every footballer knows he is going to have to tackle, they know it is a CONTACT sport?

Posted by Justin on 03/02/2010

It was a reckless, but not dirty, challenge. Only a fool would call it a 50/50 ball though.

Editor Comment - Sick of saying it but watch the footage, the ball is under his control, he gets tugged back by Bendtner it's then running away he goes to clear it and Ramsey nicks it away and his momentum takes him into Shawcross - 50/50 all day long, and don't take my word for it, take the word of every single person bar Wenger, Wilson and Graham Poll who have commented on it.

Posted by scratch on 03/02/2010

Change the spelling of Wenger's name. Substitute an "hi" for the "e". Time the guy quit crying.

Posted by Ben on 03/02/2010

If Ramsey hadn't been hurt, no one would have even bothered to mention this tackle. I've been looking at replays for the past 20 minutes, and I can't see any point prior to actual contact where Shawcross even realizes that Ramsey is coming into the tackle. When Ramsey snags that ball, Shawcross' leg is already halfway through its swing. If you are going to make that argument that Shawcross should have anticipated that there was suddenly going to be another player in his way, shouldn't Ramsey also have made an attempt to avoid going after the ball when he noticed that Shawcross had already wound up to play a strong ball?

Yeah, I thought not. Not that I'm happy with the result at all. I really do hope Aaron Ramsey gets back to playing as soon as possible, and I'm quite upset that he's been injured. It just simply wasn't an incident where any blame can reasonably be applied.

Posted by Jerome w on 03/02/2010

I'm trying to imagine Shawcross and Tony Pulis with great personality. But the video replay showed he broke Ramsey's leg, and ruined the career of a bright young player!

What if Shawcross hacked Rooney's leg in three months before the World Cup?

Tony Pulis and TV punters like Macari are sending confusing, twisted message that is the opposite of honest and effective communication.

Editor Comment - Why does everyone keep bringing up, what if this was Rooney? I imagine the player most of the country idolises wouldn't think twice about accepting it as part and parcel, much like he did with his metatarsal injury. Rooney himself has also come out in defence of Shawcross

Posted by Anon on 03/02/2010

The same arsenal complains abt rough play? The one that wes led by the wrestler Partrick 'in your face' Viera?
The same aresenal that scored (Kanu) against a team instead of passing the ball back to the opponent after they threw it out to attend to an injury to an arsenal player?
the same arsenal involved in the infamous food fight against man u!
the same arsenal that almost incited a riot after Nistlerooy missed a penalty in the last min(terrible sportsmanship)
The same arsenal, whose manager admits myopia nfor his teams fouls

I am not defending Shawcross but if he wanted to injure someone, why the heck should anyone injure useless players like Ramsey, Adebayor, Jeffers and Eduardo. Shouldnt they select some1 like Fabregas, Van Persie, Vermaelen or Arshavin (someone impt to the arsenal cause) utter nonsense!

Posted by Onsio on 03/02/2010

This article was definitely written by an English writer. Always want to praise their own. Wenger is now the bad guy here. Ryan Shawcross is just a saint, he truly deserves a Royal Honour. The writer thinks Wenger is unprofessional but Capello is one. Lets see how far his experience takes England at the world cup with the likes of Shawcross.

Editor Comment - Being English has nothing to do with it and is a poor arguement the very fact you say things like 'always want to praise their own' is indicative that it is YOU who is the xenophobic one. I stick up for my own after a vile character assasination by Wenger, he deserves no medal but respect as a fellow professional and Wenger did not afford him that

Posted by Arnar on 03/02/2010

This has been an interesting debate so far, people seem to divide into two corners, the Arsenal corner and the rest. I'm no Arsenal fan and certainly no Wenger fan either. Gunners fans whine a lot about their players being treated unfairly on the pitch.

What they have to think about is that Premier league football is played by well trained and fully mature men, not little children. Arsenal simply lack muscle power when they play Stoke or Blackburn or even Man Utd and Chelsea. Of course the Allardyces and Pulises know this and play to their advantage, this frustrates Wenger and I always find him ridiculus when he's critisising the opponents tactics. He simply needs to buy a couple of Fletchers or Mascheranos and the problem is history.

Posted by nirmal on 03/02/2010

shambolic this. let bolton or blackburn play stoke for the top two places for the premier league and just see how it goes with audience world wide!!!

to go in for a tackle u need timing and skill, anticipation of where the ball might travel. most players just shut their eyes and go in mindlessly with full force i suppose.

what if lampard or gerrard (though i dont wish for it to ever happen) was in the place of ramsey. i would like to see who defends Stoke and Shawcross.

Editor Comment - The global audience watch the Prem for it's heritage and diversity, if they wanted slow paced technique and no long balls then everyone would watch the Serie A wouldn't they?

Posted by Derek on 03/02/2010

"Can hold his head up high"? He put one of the most talented young players in football out of action for 6 months and left his career in danger. At best it was an incredibly clumsy challenge. Does Ramsey break his leg in two places if he's not tackled that way? It wasn't intended but it was consequential.

Yes Ryan,hold your head up high - rather than indulging in some introspection about your playing style and its results.

Oh and I support Spurs lest you accuse me of bias...

Editor Comment - so another team who was bitter when we beat them having a bad thing to say about one of our players? Surely not...

As for Ryan's reaction, did he walk off care free or did he have to be driven home by his parents after being reduced to tears by it all?

Posted by Anon on 03/02/2010

"Nothing more than a 50/50 ball and anyone who thinks differently clearly knows absolutely nothing about football" Jamo, you know nothing about football.

Why did Shawcross have to slide to make the tackle then? If he went for a block tackle, the injury would not have happened. It is because Shawcross does not know how to time tackles, and he does not know how to play the game. Technique and timing are the main things to take into account when defending. Size and brute strength mean nothing, perfect example Cannavaro or even Vermaelen who is not that tall. It was also a high tackle. The perfect solution to problems like this is to ban the accused for as long as the victim is out. It is only fair. The UK has lost one of its brightest talents for at least a year if not more. England will never win the world cup again with long-ball passing and bad defending. Wenger has a point and almost all teams in England now have many foreign players. Fabregas got hacked so many times against Porto.

Posted by nirmal on 03/02/2010

from the same writer a few weeks earlier assessing his team!!
"
My god, what an awful, awful game… Stoke and Sunderland both contributed to possibly the worst performance of the season and the fact it was live on ESPN for the World to see leaves me a little embaressed to be honest.

Shawcross – 7 – Ryan didn’t have his best game but won’t work much harder all season. His distribution wasn’t great and his well publicised jostling on another day could have seen us concede any number of penalties, he and Huth have a habit of doing it and sure we get away with it for the most part but all it takes is a crackdown on the rules and we will be in trouble.

Whitehead – 8 – Man of the Match - Another good game from Deano, operating on the right this time and not looking uncomfortable either. Was lucky to stay on the pitch after an ill judged kick out at his replacement but for the rest of the game looked assured and most importantly, confident. "

Editor Comment - Absolutely, we were awful and Ryan was handsy in the area, I'm not suggesting otherwise am I? We can call up Gallas' horror tackle and Diaby's too but that's not what we're talking about here is it?

Posted by Kachino on 03/02/2010

If you ever become a manager one day and see one of your players get an injury like that in the 2nd half and have to do a TV interview right after the game without looking at any tv replays ... and still keep your CALM ... then you're one awesome human being who can keep his emotions check. Everybody can say what they want on the issue but the deal is Aaron Ramsey might never be the same after that kind of injury. Intent or not, accident or not, Shawcross did break his leg and will have nightmares about it. I just hope for both players to fully recover from their pain and come back stronger to the game they love and enjoy.

Editor Comment - Agree wholeheartedly, as for the post match comments see Pulis' at the end of the article when his leg was broken in almost identical circumstances on his home debut

Posted by goldmund20 on 03/02/2010

Though this article goes over the top just as much as Wenger does, this incident has brought up very poignant and based on the extreme responses very divisive issues. The dialogue gets nowhere when people begin to attack a person's character with facts based on quotes here and there or just outright ignorance or intolerance. English are seeing the game they have loved for a century turning into something unfamiliar or different and Wenger is the poster boy for the "other" in this case.
Perhaps because Wenger has turned himself from not only a manager and coach into a father figure for these young players at Arsenal he reacts more like a distraught father than a cool,level headed professional in this and several other incidents. That does not give you the right to brand him as you and many in the media have for years now. People are always going to defend their own, as you are in this case, but in general before one brands someone as classless, one might want to look at oneself first

Posted by okwonko on 03/02/2010

From what i can gather the incidence is okay because it has been endorsed by ex-pro players of all times including arsenal ones.

Some people with some schooling - many football pros especially english ones have little or no schooling. Good schooling is not a prerequisite in football. BUT TO MAKE A SOUND ARGUEMENT NEEDS IT.

Now my question, was the world/earth flat becuase everyone but one nerd ( arsene ) said so ?

Editor Comment - what a load of tosh, we are talking about English Football here, are we not allowed to dare to attempt to win a ball against the mighty Arsenal. How can you disrespect seasoned pro's including those of your own team who have stuck up for Shawcross?! Schooling has nothing to do with it, let's stick a lad from Eton out there and see how he gets on in a game of Football...jees

Posted by Chase on 03/02/2010

James, I'm sure you are a nice guy. I'm sure you would never set out to hurt anyone. Same thing with Shawcross. But, if you James, were driving recklessly and happened to hit a kid on a bike and injure him/her, you would be prosecuted, no matter how many people came to vouch for your character. Why is Shawcross being made to look the victim? If I'm right, he's still playing football and isn't laying in a hospital, in pain, wondering what to do if he never plays football again. Shawcross is a crook, and if tackles like these are not penalized, they will continue. You along with all the press will continue to back your petty, talentless English players. If this was Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard, the witch hunt would be real. Get better soon Aaron!

Editor Comment - Not a fair comparison, a kid on a bike doesn't go on a bike and know that that entails a physical encounter, footballers know exactly what happens, tackling is part of the game, getting knocked down is not part of riding a bike, getting laces caught in the chain is?

Posted by SM on 03/02/2010

Speaking about rough play arsenal is the only premiere league team not to receive a red card this season till now.They got 4 in the previous season and the one before that. Also they didnt get a single red card in the year 2009.The other teams tend to take advantage by playing physical game against them because they have no other answer to the passing game.Now after having lost a player due a terrible tackle, saying that it was due to bendtner is just dramatic.As though this is the first time that someone is pulling the shirt of another player.Oh ya that deserves a red card, even if Showcross didnt.

Editor Commnent - We've played you 3 times this season, aside from the Red there was only one booking and that was Arsenal's

Posted by Anonymous on 03/02/2010

youtube shawcross's horror lunge on adebayor vs arsenal last year before we start claiming he is as big a victim as young ramsey. no one is saying malice was involved but players don't break their tibia and fibula if the tackle was along the ground...the only way a player experiences a compound fracture of his tibia and fibula in a challenge like that is if he gets caught well above the ankle on his leg. i should know because i am a doctor who treats these injuries...

Edit - is there a video of Adebayors kick studs up into Shawcross' midrift there too?

Posted by Richard Long on 03/02/2010

I am so terribly sickened by the continual apologetics for the thuggish and grotesque football. I am an american, yes have followed arsenal for 13 years now, because Wenger went there, but myself played for five years and six different teams in the french 3rd division after college in the 90's, am not an ignorant or naive spectator who have never played, the "mans game", but this approach to football is sickening, yes get stuck in, yes man up, but in heaven's name be skillful and mindful of a person and not a skilless thug or otherwise play sunday league. Shawcross may not be malicious, but he and many coaches are guilty of one thing, and that is intentionally attempting to balance out their lack of skill and intelligence with thuggery on the pitch prompted by their coaches who say arsenal are slick and talented and intelligent with vision and cultured pace, kickem of the pitch, let us end this filth. I teach my son to go in solid and hard when tackeling, but to stay on his feet!

Editor Comment - Have you never been to a game where a full blooded perfectly timed sliding tackle was met with as much applause as a goal? Like goals, some tackles are better than others but they are all part of the game..

Posted by Seun Okegbemiro on 03/02/2010

This article is very ridiculous from you and I will not be suprised if you do not let it make public viewing but do you realise that this same Ryan Shawcross broke Francis Jeffer's leg in 2008. Do you realise that such a tackle broke Eduardo's leg for almost 2 years and also Diaby's. So what do you expect Wenger to do? "Its okay ryan, I know you didnt intend to do it?" When does anyone ever want to intentionally hurt someone? Its never meant but if you not sure of getting a ball, dont swing a boot so hard. This same Ryan sent Adebayor out for a few weeks with a mistimed tackle. I cannot believe you have the ability to castigate Wenger from protecting his players from career ending injuries. Have you thought if that was our captain? Once again, Arsenal's challenge would ve been over. I wonder what you would have said, if that tackle was made on Rooney? I wish you well ramsey

Editor Comment - Again, taking out your frustrations for 3 broken legs on one man. As for the Jeffers tackle, it was a poor one but one deemed only a yellow card if memory serves, a tackle within the laws of the game..

Posted by Alex on 03/02/2010

Lets put this into an extreme context.

If your actions leads to the death of someone, intentional or not, you will be found guilty of manslaughter and given a prison sentence of several years minimum.

Ryan might not have intended to break both of Ramseys leg bones, but his actions did just that. Say he had fully connected with the ball, he would have still had to finish the swing of his leg, which would have gone into Ramsey elsewhere. If not breaking a different bone, perhaps an ankle, or temporarily injuring him. It was reckless, dangerous and he is right to have the ban of 3 matches a red card brings, if not a couple of matches longer.

We want players to be physical and give it their all, but making such a potentially reckless and damaging tackle should not have to be tolerated. This time it ended badly.

As did his tackles on Adebayor and Francis Jeffers. Coincidences ay...

Editor Comment - What about Adebayor's kick intio Shawcross' midrift in the same game? Or Gallas and Diaby's awful challenges last season? Shall we ban them too?

Posted by alexcornes on 03/02/2010

Oh and I'm a Newcastle fan, so no bias here.
Just disgust with what was an easily avoidable injury if Shawcross had used a bit more skill rather than all of his reckless brute force.

Editor Comment - You must love watching Barton play then?

Posted by James on 03/02/2010

Wow this might be the most posts on a Stoke City article EVER! Too bad it took this incident to get your team media attention. Most EPL teams understand Stoke's "rough em up" mentality and unfortunately for Arsenal, it has resulted in a mistimed challenge and terrible outcome. What might be a good idea for the FA to consider, is to lower the # of cards each player can accumulate before sitting out x# of games. That way players will think twice about breaking the rules. Also, why not make players sit out more games as they accumulate red cards over their career? Instead of just the regulation 3 match ban? Just ideas.

Editor Comment - First red card of his career. We get the attention just fine thanks, like when one of our players gets called up to England on merit. What are your thoughts on Gallas and Diaby's fouls against Bolton last season out of interest?

Posted by brendon on 03/02/2010

dear editor why are you refusing to put my last comment up? prolly cos im right eh?

oh since i didnt iclude this with the other here ya go.. you can make these ridiclous bias comments about wenger but the funny thing is you are a hypocrite for doing so. why you ask? cos this is the other end of the spectrum from wengers comments.. the other extreme.. which is you taking all blame from shawcross saying he is completly innocent and even going so far as putting some of the blame on bendtners shoulders.. the truth is you are no better than wenger and the pathetic part is youve had a few days to ponder this whereas wengers comments in this article are taken out of context and also taken directly after the game in question when passion and anger were still flowing through his viens.. you are a biased hypocrite and since you refuse to put up my last comment i am telling you here..

Editor Comment - if your last comment wasn't posted you were either abusive, linked another site or non sensical, this is none of the above so I'll gladly publish, unlike the Arsenal writer who wouldn't publish my thoughts...

Posted by Mansfield on 03/02/2010

Fair enough post,
a point, in the responses you like to point out that during the three meetings only arsenal had received a booking. I assume that you are referring to Song's yellow for impediment of Delap on the fair side of the field, hardly a violent booking and much like the shawcross/ramsey tackle in that it was, seemingly, a 50:50 shoulder to shoulder affair. Looking at the disciplinary stats at the official premier league site arsenal have 41 yellows and zero reds to date while stoke has 51 yellows and 4 reds. this with arsenal playing a game more. individually alex song leads both teams in yellows with 8 while stoke has 3 players with 7 yellows ( Diao, Shawcross and Fuller). Stoke also has 3 players with 6 yellows Whitehead, Whelan, and Wilkinson. While the next arsenal player, Fabregas has 5. Both teams then have a smattering of players with 3 or less. My point, perhaps you should leave the discipline records out of it and let your acceptable article stand on its own merit.

Editor Comment - The stats were as a response to the generic notion that Stoke are dirty, and you yourself have proved that even Arsenal have a similar card count, including one against Stoke I might add. I'm challenging the stereotype that 90% of your fellow gooners have wrongly chosen to attack..

Posted by narendra on 03/02/2010

hehe..i think arsenal should have a look at the diet of their players instead of blaming other teams..!!

i think thier diet seriously lacks calcium.. :P

i never saw so many players whose bones break so easily... you see tougher tackles in street football..!!! but never saw so many broken bones with one squad...

Posted by brendon on 03/02/2010

if being abusive is calling you a douche then yes i was abusive. i didnt realize how sensitive you were lol
i also like how you completly ignored my point about you being a complete biased hypocrite. which is perfectly valid and prolly played a part in you ingnoring it cos you cant deny the TRUTH. you may think you are a lesser evil then wenger but you are the same. defending shawcross the same as he defended ramsey. you just dont want to admit that you are no different. and you definitely dont want to comment on the fact that your shawcross has a history of this. which is also the truth no matter how many excuses you provide jeffers and ade now ramsey. sure ade may have hit him in the mid riff earlier that game but you are basically condoning an eye for an eye tactics by even referencing that incident when talking about his terrible tackle on ade..the tackle on ramsey was a bad tackle an thats the truth.. no malice maybe but that doesnt change the fact that it wasnt a good challenge!

Editor Comment - If it was for abuse it would have been worse than 'douche' - .Shawcross has had one red card in his career - FACT. Players get injured in tackles and I'm sure I could find plenty of Arsenal challenges that ended up in spells out of the game. You also fail to acknowledge van Persie's red card fro violent conduct or is it only bad if it's against your team?

As for saying I'm no lesser evil than Wenger is admitting Wenger is evil to start with - good point, he is really isn't he?

Posted by Michael J on 03/02/2010

In the match between United and City Ferdinand tried to casually flip the ball over to the line where a united player was standing, he made an error and Bellamy latched onto the ball and rushed to the united goal and scored. Ferdinand's intent was fatal inasmuch as there was a goal scored.

Shawcross's intent may have been otherwise but the result was a crushing injury, result was a three game suspension for him and probably a 60 game suspension for Ramsey. Its the responsibility that counts, as for Ferdinand he cannot undo the goal by an error and Shawcross is the same, nice guy or not somewhere, he has to take the responsibility for that and all the glad handing and back patting is not going to take that away or give Ramsey his career back.

Editor Comment - you're quite right, Shawcross would obviously do anything to undo the damage, but he can't and he'll carry that with him for the rest of his life.

Posted by gaymakingidsare on 03/02/2010

"Editor Comment - Once again, a stupid example, if there was a game called go out and occasionally run into traffic and get hit by cars then the pedestrian would expect the possibility given the running nature of his game. Football is a contact sport, Shawcross didn't mow him down unsuspectingly in the street, they put on their boots and their shin pads and they tried to beat each other."

Actually, there are not only rules of the road that govern inflicting injury on others and culpability of the offenders, there are rules in football - called "fouls" - that are designed to prevent injuries.

A person in traffic is also aware that personal injury is always seconds away. One goes into traffic knowing that, and undertaking that risk.

Editor Comment - Rubbish..So as a pedestrian when I go out walking do I run towards oncoming cars and whilst I'm at it do I attire myself in equipment for it and have an audience there? Of course it was a foul, and for that foul injury aside it was probably a booking at most. It was the injury that brought the red card, that and the Arsenal players crowding around the referee instead of helping their team mate..

Posted by Anon on 03/02/2010

What's at issue here is not whether Shawcross is good or not, or whether he meant it or not; what's at issue is that there is a clear pattern of horrific injuries to Arsenal players, accompanied by clear instructions from the managers of opposing teams as well as the media that the most effective tactic against Arsenal is that of putting a foot in.

It's no accident. At all. It's rough, violent play, done knowingly, and managers should be held accountable. Physical play is perfectly fine, but only a fool would say it hasn't crossed a line.

Editor Comment - The issue that should be discussed, is why does this keep happening to Arsenal, I agree but the direction of the argument from Arsenal is to blame Shawcross as if he had committed all 3 leg breaks himself

I would love the opportunity to have a sensible discussion about that issue and the English game and heritage in general but given the outburst by Wenger and the subsequent witch hunt for Shawcross, that hasn't been possible unfortunately..

Posted by Damon on 03/02/2010

Can we at least see a little praise for Glen Whelan? I saw one person up there said how great he was and I have to agree. While I get why Vermaleen and Fabregas were horrified, it was impressive to see Whelan, someone who doesn't have any strong connection to Ramsey, stay with him.

Editor Comment - Thanks Damon and to all other Arsenal fans who have commented on Glenn

Posted by matt on 03/02/2010

i love how you try and villianize wenger through all of this. he has 3 players in 3 years hoffifically injured the other two were malicious and dirty this one is different but still same result. if wenger does not fight for his team and their protection on the pitch then who will? im not saying wenger doesnt make excuses from time to time but wat manager doesnt.to call wenger classless is wrong and shameless of yourself you should look in the mirror and write articles that actually make a descent arguement.

Editor Comment - If you read what I have said, I have said that Wenger attacked Shawcross' character and intentions because it was the third time it has happened - why put that on the shoulders of a young footballer when the other two were absolutely nothing to do with him and this one was an accident - do you thik that is fair?

Posted by brendon on 03/02/2010

now your taking my comments out of context. you seem to think that wenger is evil for speaking out after hes seen the 3rd player in 3 years out for long term periods for bad challenges. which i in turn say to you that you are just as bad as he is. all im telling you is you are just as bias as him and you cant see it.
"im sure i could find plenty of arsenal challenges that ended up in spells out of the game" well you havent provided me with any examples of our players injuring someone for a long period of time which shawcross has done 3 times now FACT. i havent once said that the challenge was purposeful or had malice in it i just say it wasnt a good one and was very aggresive he tried to use physique and strength to his advantage and he went in hard and this was the result simple as that
as for van persie you cant possibly be talking about his red card for his foul against stoke on Sorensen can you.. while it was a stupid foul it didnt hurt anyone so i dont know why you bring it up

Editor Comment - "he tried to use the physique and strength to his advantage" - just like Ramsey used his speed and technique to his..all components of Football. As for bringing up a Red Card for violent conduct against Stoke as recent as last season not being relevent - I guess digging up those of Shawcross' from over 3 yrs ago is?! He has only ever had ONE red card, which is less than van Persie...

Posted by mondae on 03/02/2010

When the incident happened, i felt shawcross was malicious in his tackle..but then after seeing the slowMo Close up...I think its wrong to blame Shawcross..was a 50/50 ball - Bad for ramsey..great talent..hope he recovers..

not a fan of stoke..or arsenal..dnt believe england can win the world cup untill they do something with english media....but i like torres and berbatov.

Editor Comment - Nice to have a neutral view and your comments reflect pretty much every other neutral view since the incident in calling it a 50/50 ball..

Posted by Mansfield on 03/02/2010

Indeed the stats are interesting, Arsenal is the only team without a red card this season. The majority of teams seem to hover around 3 or 4 (Stoke) with Liverpool at 5 and Sunderland at 6 (looks like Cana is having an effect!) While I agree that it is not a large disparity in number of cards 10 yellows and 4 reds the way the table is calculated makes it seem so with Arsenal in second, behind Fulham and Stoke in 18th. Perhaps the method used to rank teams' disciplinary record paints the picture of a larger discrepancy? Regardless, fair play to Stoke to this season taking 2 of the 3 meetings. It is a shame the the accident occurred which, justifiably sucked the life out of an otherwise gripping tie. I say this all quite calmly because Ramsey's breaks were reported as clean and should heal nicely. I also feel he is young enough to get over the mental trouble, the same for Shawcross.

Editor Comment - Agreed mansfield, it was a great game up until that point and not much of a contest afterwards, I can't remember caring less about a result given what happened. Let's hope both players can move on unaffected both physically and mentally..

Posted by Jacob from Michigan on 03/02/2010

It doesn't matter if Shawcross meant to do it or not. His tackle was of utter recklessness. It was an untimed, ill-advised, home-run kick. He broke Ramsey's leg in two places, red-carded he should be. Just because Shawcross didn't mean to do something, doesn't mean he shouldn't be penalized for it. I think a red card and the lingering feeling he must have on his consciousness will do for now; until be breaks someone elses leg, then we will really be able analyze his soccer character.

Editor Comment - unsure what a home run kick is?! I don't think it was reckless, I think it was committed and any mistiming was not helped by being dragged back by Bendter a split second before that?

Posted by R2Dad on 03/02/2010

Reading your article makes it sound like Wenger's big flaws are 1) he's French, and 2) he's corrupting the English game. Might I remind you that the EPL is successful due to he global nature of the league, not because fans enjoy lads hacking each other down. The FA has to look at these incidents and decide if something must be done. The EPL is the golden goose and these incidents hurt the quality and diversity of the game. By all accounts Shawcross had limited vision (ball-watching) that day and has exhibited questionable tackling form. HE could have been the one stretchered off, and if you believe in karma he probably will be.

Editor Comment - No problem with the fact he is French at all. The "EPL" is so popular because there is diversity, slower technical leagues aren't as popular - see Serie A

It wasn't so long ago that Wenger was praising this side of the English game..

"The passion and commitment of the English game. You have to ask yourself if you want to take that out of the game here. When I watch a Serie A game, I’m bored after five minutes. If you want totally clean football, you’ll get bored."

- Arsene Wenger in February 2002, after Oleg Luzhny earned their 11th red card in 37 matches that season.

Posted by Lukas Rutter on 03/02/2010

I seem to remember in the Carling Cup final a few years ago when it was Arsenal v. Chelsea and Terry got kicked in the face and almost swallowed his tongue. I can't remember who the Arsenal player was but I think he also was very upset and was tearing up like Shawcross. Wenger is just an idiot. (Sorry if someone used this before me, I didn't read all the comments.)

Editor Comment - No, this is the first time it's been raised Lukas, I'm sure Terry knew exactly what was possible when he stuck his head in but that's a committed challenge, as was Wilkinson for Stoke the other week whe he had his head split open heading a ball off an attacker's toe, these things happen..

Posted by Ann on 03/02/2010

A wasteful commentary and a poorly veiled anti-Wenger tirade. I'm a Stokie through and through (50 darn years of it!) and that match spoiled an excellent season so far. We beat Arsenal in the cup and beat them well using our strengths. That's enough to give Wenger something to think about. Unfortunately, that will all disappear now in the season's retrospective. Fact is, Ryan is fully committed but just not quick enough.

Editor Comment - You surprise me with that reponse Ann as every single Stoke fan I have spoken to bar none have been equally as critical of Wenger as myself so not sure if you're on a wind up, apologies if you aren't...

Posted by gaymakingidsare on 03/02/2010

"Editor Comment - The issue that should be discussed, is why does this keep happening to Arsenal, I agree but the direction of the argument from Arsenal is to blame Shawcross as if he had committed all 3 leg breaks himself

I would love the opportunity to have a sensible discussion about that issue and the English game and heritage in general but given the outburst by Wenger and the subsequent witch hunt for Shawcross, that hasn't been possible unfortunately."

It's not a witchhunt, it's a clear pattern.

Players are told to play Arsenal rougher than they normally would other teams because that's how to get a result, ostensibly. The fact that there's been severe injuries is a direct result of that specific, intentional tactic, and it's not an accident. It's cause and effect.

Editor Comment - You say it's not a witch hunt, it'ss not as far as the general issue goes as there is clear substance but it IS when it is aimed at the latest player to be involved and this challenge not a cynical one at all..

Posted by billp79 on 03/02/2010

no one ever 'means to'

yet it happens consitantly to this player...either he is dumb (doesn't know how to tackle) or he meant it....which is it?
Wengers comments are nothing more than the defense of his team...and how other less techincal teams battle against faster more skilled players....you comments border on xenophobia at worst, defense of your team (which you are belittling wenger for) at best...
assault is assault

Editor Comment - "The passion and commitment of the English game. You have to ask yourself if you want to take that out of the game here. When I watch a Serie A game, I’m bored after five minutes. If you want totally clean football, you’ll get bored."

- Arsene Wenger in February 2002, after Oleg Luzhny earned their 11th red card in 37 matches that season.

Posted by Jamo on 03/02/2010

To anon (who thinks I know nothing about football),

I know plenty about football pal, I bet I've been to more games than you have had hot dinners. I travel home and away and watch my club every single week and know what real football is (not the stuff on T.V. in case you thought that's what being a fan meant.)

Speaking to supporters (that's people who attend their team's matches by the way) of other clubs this week (including our local rivals up the road) I am yet to find one who doesn't think the challenge was a 50/50. Both players attempted the exact same challenge but Ramsey got there a fraction of a second earlier than Ryan did which resulted in his terrible injury.

We wish young Ramsey a very speedy recovery but may I please ask Gooner's to stop making prats of themselves, take a step back and stop castigating a bright, young star of England's future who accidently injured one of your players.

Editor Comment - Well said Jamo, it's absolutely staggering that the majority of Arsenal fans STILL attack Shawcross despite 99.9% backing for him

Posted by gaymakingidsare on 03/02/2010

From what I read of the post-match comments, Shawcross wasn't vilified by Wenger, rather he just said that he didn't want to read all the articles about what a great lad he is.

Frankly, I don't even really harbour any ill will against Shawcross. He was clumsy, reckless and showed no respect or protection for a fellow professional, but the gaffer is at fault.

I unfortunately have no idea what to do about all this, but it's clear to me that players are told by their managers to do a job, and there's been too many occasions in which that job has gotten over the line and out of control.

Editor Comment - So it's Pulis now?

Posted by james on 03/02/2010

Editor Comment - First red card of his career. We get the attention just fine thanks, like when one of our players gets called up to England on merit. What are your thoughts on Gallas and Diaby's fouls against Bolton last season out of interest?

I get it was the first red card of his career, albeit I am surprised considering those videos of previous tackles. However, I was stating the suggestions of match bans and cards per career for the entire premier league. It needs to get solved. That goes for Diaby, Gallas, Scholes, Ballack, and every other notoriously bad tackler. Diaby is lazy on defense so he makes needless tackles and Gallas is a pretty good defender overall but I think he tries to make up for lack of pace by making a needless last ditch challenge sometimes. And, God knows I don't need to comment on Scholes history. Ballack is a just a hothead.

Now, as for Stoke media "attention" on 1 England call-up. Come on, 80% of Arsenal's team plays for their countries.

Editor Comment - yes, we are proud of Ryan being called up by England, we have had a long time with little success and in the last 4 years have gone from the brink of relegation to midtable in the Prem and the QF of the FA Cup, we are also debt free - I think that's pretty damn good considering..

Posted by Amad on 03/02/2010

What a pathetic read.. what did you expect Mr wenger would say after a tackle like that? did you think he would go and throw some kind words towards shawcross after taking out the premier leagues most promising player?

Editor Comment - See Pulis' comment after exactly the same thing happened to Delap.

Posted by LoneStar on 03/02/2010

I should have expected you would not post my previous comment...how about this one?

Why was the bulk of your "article" about Wenger? He did not have his leg broken. He did not make the reckless challenge - it was a reckless and dangerous challenge (res ipsa loquitor).
Shawcross has made challenges like this at least twice before - and broken one other lad's leg. How long until you and the rest of the English media stop taking up for him? Just for your, and other Stokies' benefit, the ONLY victim here is the 19 year old who has had his leg needlessly broken (and none of us can be sure his career has not been significantly jeopardized)... not the 22 year old who has broken at least one other man's leg in the past.

I still wonder if you will be so committed to full-contact football if one of your Three Lions is mauled by some reckless scamp?

Editor Comment - The bulk of the article is about Wenger because of his Shawcross character assasination, that's all. As for the Jeffers tackle, yes, it was a bad tackle and he was booked, these things happen, Gallas and Diaby both lucky in the past 12 months not to have finished a player's career

Posted by Brendan on 03/02/2010

If any of you had ever played futbol at a decent level you would know that a team might have the ability to knock the ball around but it takes more than that to win in the EPL. You have to be hard to. Arsenal is known to be soft around the league so they probably end up with the worst of it, that's the way it goes. Nobody was complaining when they were kicking the **** out of everyone a few years ago. Quit being a bunch of posh mo's, and get on with it!!!

Posted by ADFaye on 03/02/2010

I really can't be arsed to read through the last 12 hours of boring neanderthal drivel that seems to be spawned from the Wenger school of response.

If you cannot accept what the whole of the footballing world has accepted by now, i pity you all.

You should neither be viewing or attending games if you believe for one second that Ryan was culpable in any way. I say that because you must have no clear understanding of the ENGLISH game.

Soccer speak will immediately be dimly viewed in my eyes as that will culminate my retort that any of you have yet to view a Prem game in person.

Posted by 3.3.10 on 03/02/2010

Wenger needs to get over himself. Sure, his player was badly injured, but it cannot be the first season ending injury in Football this season. Only because he has such a well known club under his control can he divert attention that Arsenal used to be one of the dirtiest clubs around. Also, why didn't Wenger admit that it was the opposition who went to Ramsey, and looked after him whilst Arsenal players were nowhere to be seen. This isn't the first of his outbursts though, so come Arsene, change the record. PLEASE. Obviously Capello has more sense than you.. If it was a malicious tackle, and if he had this supposed history of bad play, WHY IS HE PLAYING FOR ENGLAND.

This from a Villa supporter

Editor Comment - Yet another message of support from a neutral, I've got a lot of time for Villa and the way they approach games and the way the team has grown in the right direction..

Posted by Fabgooner on 03/02/2010

Most comments here have been quite sensible, I'd like to add a few things:

TO the person who said the 'it was a 50-50 challenge, if you can't see that you don't know football'. I hate these kind of statements, i.e if you can't see something that I can see, you don't know anything.

Besides, look at it again. It's not a 50-50. Shawcross has no chance of getting the ball whatsoever.

"I seem to remember in the Carling Cup final a few years ago when it was Arsenal v. Chelsea and Terry got kicked in the face and almost swallowed his tongue. I can't remember who the Arsenal player was but I think he also was very upset and was tearing up like Shawcross. Wenger is just an idiot."

Wenger is an idiot because someone accidently kicks someone?

Suggesting that Pullis has more class than Wenger;

Pulis said after the game that he didn't give tuppence about what Wenger thought about his players. Not only shows a lack of class, but can he not read? Wenger never attacked Shawcross.

Editor Comment - Pulis' comments were in response to Wenger incinuating it was not an accident and saying such things as 'spare me how nice the lad is' - you get behind Wenger for defending Ramsey yet lambast Pulis for doing the same?

Posted by gaymakingidsare on 03/02/2010

Yes, it's Pulis now. That's exactly the point: it's so easy to say that the player clearly didn't "intend" to injure someone, but when they're told to put a foot in and give them something to think about and it goes horribly wrong, that's not an accident!

It's called reckless disregard, and they should all know better. If penalising managers and even clubs is the only way to stamp it out, then why not?

I agree that at best it's a difficult determination and even a slippery slope, but we're never going to get anywhere if we don't at least first agree that there's a problem.

Editor Comment - I think a lot of people's problems are the current rules of the English game in terms of what is acceptable - is that a fair assumption?

if that is correct and Arsenal are a victim of this, what would the other 19 teams in the league think about changing things?

Posted by ADFaye on 03/02/2010

Ramsey himself has exonerated Ryan so quite what the issue is here, i have no idea?

Sir Alex Ferguson cut short his Carling Cup celebrations to contact Ryan and reassure him of his support, as did Rooney and Milner. Beckham and Gerrard are reported to have taken him 'under their wing' as an England potential yet you gooners are all of the opinion that he is a thug.

Had it have been any other stoke player, i may have been inclined to agree, but Ryan...no chance.

Carry on folks, you sound more deluded by the day and now the media are picking up on it .

Editor Comment - It's been great for Ryan to receive such support but it's also sad that it is only because Wenger acted so poorly that people have felt the need to stick up for him. I must say after the initial reports the press are really starting to turn on Wenger that little bit more..

Posted by Ann on 03/02/2010

(Editor Comment - You surprise me with that reponse Ann as every single Stoke fan I have spoken to bar none have been equally as critical of Wenger as myself so not sure if you're on a wind up, apologies if you aren't...)

Look, Wenger's opinions are at best, light entertainment and at worst, sycophantic drivel. Maybe that was the gist of your blog and sorry if I misunderstood it, but there is something else in all of this that upsets me. If there had been a natural disaster, say a player got struck by lightening, it would be sad, yet I would not feel...ashamed.

But I do feel ashamed, not because we play a robust traditional English style, far from it, but because it wasn't a natural disaster, it was man made and avoidable. As I said, Ryan is not quick enough and we all know it (at least those of us who are there every week). He had no business going into a 50/50 challenge with that much force. It was reckless, and you cannot afford to be reckless at this level.

Editor Comment - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in that case, I think the tackle was unfortunate and our players conduct in the aftermath commendable, I certainly feel no shame at all

Posted by Sam on 03/02/2010

How can any of you question the reaction of horrified Arsenal players after seeing a commrade on the ground with one half of his leg dangling from another? I was covering my eyes just watching it on TV and would never question someone's class for being distraught from seeing an injured teammate. It was a very classy move from the Stoke player that went to his side!

To those who question Wenger's class, get real! This guy has brought so much good to Arsenal Football Club in his time here and doesn't deserve hatred from supporters of a club trying to excuse a bad challenge. I don't see it as malicious; I do see there being a greater danger of injuries like this when a club has the intention of being extra phyiscal and hard in challenges. The complaint most Gooners have is that everyone (managers, players, fans, refs.) know when certain teams play Arsenal they will try to bully them physically, and even still we don't get deserved calls that if called may avoid fouls like this.

Posted by swampySCFC on 03/02/2010

The general opinion of professional footballers over the last 3 days is very much one of this incident being a freak accident-nothing more and nothing less.

Its time Wenger showed a bit more respect towards fellow professionals instead of whining on to cover his own deficiencies.

A lot of the arsenal comment on here is from idiots that werent at the game and probably seldom go to Arsenal home games. How easy is it to forget the thuggery that wenger presided over in the Vieira era or the Gallas tackle that put John Terry out with a broken foot.

Or is it that they follow the Managers example and simply see what they want to?

Either way Arsenal and its fans are living in a bubble.

Posted by ADFaye on 03/02/2010

My own father spent 18 months in traction having been a man utd hopeful after an horrific compond fracture to his tib and fib some 28 years ago, culminating in 120 stitches and one leg 2" shorter than the other and now 54 years of age, he's wheelchair bound.

If you care to visit him, he will stil maintain that it's 'part of the game' though i spent nearly 2 years visiting my dad in hospital.

You all need to grow up a lot if you ask me

Editor Comment - Sorry to hear about your dad ADFaye, I think being brought up on the English game and with the image of Butcher bleeding for the cause we perhaps have more of a brothers in arms attitude, the kind of attitude that has served this country well over the years. I think it's unfortunate that these things happen to Arsenal but sadder still that Wenger deems it neccesary for everyone to adapt ot his way of doing things and not that his team perhaps need to adapt to the game the other 19 teams are playing?

Posted by Jeff on 03/02/2010

I'll just say right off the bat that I am an Arsenal fan. The tackle was not malicious and, in the words of Pulis was just "poor." It happens sometimes.

The majority of Arsenal fans have nothing against Shawcross personally. There are a few muppets who call for his head but these have been blown out of proportion.

What there is, is a reaction against those in the media who are portraying Shawcross as a victim. (such as yourself) As has been stated, his past record includes a number of bad challenges. This doesn't mean he is a bad person, but it does indicate that his tackling can go too far. Yes, so can Diaby and Gallas, but we are talking about a player who's manager said he wasn't that type of player when the record indicates otherwise. Someone who crashes their car repeatedly can be the nicest person in the world, but it doesn't change the fact they are a bad driver.

Editor Comment - Whilst Shawcross had one other unfortunate tackle in his past ironically against a former Gunner, it was against a player who makes Bullard look like the Bionic Man. Pulis and Sir Alex both know Ryan better than anyone and both have nothing but praise for his character. lest we forget that Wenger himself was reported to be chasing him last Summer..

Posted by hall on 03/02/2010

Fair tackle, ramsey was just unlucky

Posted by Lukas on 03/02/2010

to Fabgooner

I guess I did leave that unexplained and poorly worded. When I said "Wenger is an idiot" I didn't mean that it was because of that kick in the face, but his latest comments of how anything against his team is intentional and someone else also mentioned that Arsenal are soft and I've always heard that if you go in soft, you are more likely to get injured.
Sometimes you are just SOL

Posted by Jake on 03/02/2010

As a Gooner, I was completely incensed by the tackle. Sure, it wasn't intentional. It was a poor challenge and an unfortunate result. What I'm mad about is how recklessly Shawcross has hurled himself into challenges over the last three years. This is the second leg he's broken as a Stoke defender. He's been blasted for bad tackles on Darren Fletcher and Michael Carrick earlier in the season, and was responsible for an awful, pointless challenge on Adebayor last season. It's a trend now. There has to be disciplinary action taken to ensure he learns when a bad tackle is a bad tackle. And praise for a dirty style of football is an idiotic holdover of commentators yearning for the good old pre-yellow card days. Football's not a punchup with passing anymore and the quicker the British pundits realize this, the better it will be for the game.

Editor Comment - What about Adebayor's pointless challenge? For every Fletcher and Carrick there's a Davies and Steinsson, bad tackles happen for a number of reasons and to yearn for days when players loved their clubs more than the pay, when they would sit amongst the fans, when they wouldn't dive is nothing to be ashamed of..

Posted by Joel on 03/02/2010

I'm sorry Mr Whittaker, but you are completely off base. If this was Wayne Rooney's leg shattered in six pieces, I can assure you that no one would be talking about 'accidents happen', 'he's not that kind of player' and all the other junk I'm hearing. There would be a good and proper witch hunt on the perpetrator. Shawcross a victim? He gets sympathy b/c he went off in tears and his Mum had to pick him up?? Puuhlease. And you condemn the Arsenal players for their reaction in the immediate aftermath? Give your head a shake - I suggest you would have been vomiting on your boots if your team mate and dear friend was lying there with bones sticking out of his leg. I dare you to prove otherwise.

Editor Comment - People keep saying 'if this was Rooney' - it isn't and as I have said before, he wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was a similar tackle, much like when his metatarsal was broken in a routine enough coming together, Rooney understands and more importantly thrives in the English game. As for the Arsenal player's reactions, they were so distraught and caught up in the horror that they immediately surrouded the referee and pushed around our players - I'm sorry but you can't defend that any more than choosing to ignore the empathy shown by the likes of Whelan..

Posted by Chuck on 03/02/2010

I am a 100% die-hard Arsenal fan and do believe it was a 50/50 ball. It was completely the right move to send him off as it would have resulted in an ugly remainder of the game.

The point of contention I have with your piece is to paint Wenger is some light as being a dirty manager and that the players were disgraceful after the event. I thought the team showed amazing character in maintaining composure and not elevating the event into a brawl. The unfortunate thing with Wenger is the only people that appreciate him are Arsenal fans. The rest of the soccer world love to take shots at him for one thing or another, bottom line is he's a class guy and molds his players as class players.

Best of luck to Ramsey on his recovery.

Posted by jeff on 03/02/2010

I never questioned his character only his ability. You can't deny he is a powerful hard-hitting defender who plays a very physical game.

Wenger never actually says anything bad about Shawcross as a person. Of course his statement after a game is going to be driven by anger and frustration, so would yours. I think the issue here is not the challenge on it's own but the challenge combined with the reports that come out from various players/teams that they need to be extra physical against Arsenal to stop their passing game. For example, for years Bolton had kicked lumps out of Arsenal and the papers said nothing. Then Gallas throws in a bad challenge and there was a real witchhunt (deservedly so imo)

TBH, in this instance, I am suprised everyone are so focussed on Wenger, Pulis and Shawcross when Peter Walton (I think he was the official)played a significant part in letting the game develop as it did. We saw the same thing happen in the Liverpool-Everton match a few weeks previous

Editor Comment - Agreed Jeff, Walton waspretty poor throughout Ithought and never really had a grasp of the game..You say Wenger never said anything bad about Ryan, maybe not directly but he said 'spare me on how nice the lad is, this is no coincidence' which is pretty damning..

Posted by besides on 03/02/2010

Foreigners killing the English game? Perhaps. English players killing the PL? If you keep defending these kinds of tackles, then yes. The best players in the world will go running off to other leagues where referees don't turn a blind eye to repetitive, tactical, and overly aggressive fouling.

Editor Comment - I was making a more general comment about Wenger saying the game is being ruined by tackles, when it could equally be argued that the game is being ruined by not bringing through homegrown talent..

Posted by jeff on 03/02/2010

Just a correction to your statement about Shawcross' previous tackling record. He had a late tackle from behind on Francis Jeffers and another bad challenge on Adebayor, taking both players out. Perhaps, given that previous challenge on Adebayor, it is understandable why Wenger said what he did about the challenge on Ramsey. ie: the "coincidence" statement.

Editor Comment - Perhaps,. it's a bit unfair though given Adebayors midrfit tackle with his studs minutes before and van Persie's red card on the day

Posted by Baumjust on 03/02/2010

I'm a Barca fan who occasionally watches Arsenal because, well, they're the only team in the English game worth watching except for ManU on some occasions.

What I can't understand is how the editor thinks that this attitude has "served the country well over the years." Really? How many World Cups have England managed in the past, oh, four decades? But we've more than made up for it with all the European championships, right?

Perhaps if we can just get Shawcross (who, sure, I believe is a nice enough lad, and I believe didn't go in with intent, but clearly plays out of control and is clearly part of a culture where managers say "we're not as good as they are, so let's kick them") to go into "50/50"s with more Brazilians and Spaniards we'd have a shot at some international glory?

Editor Comment - I was referring more to the English spirit thorugh adversity and opposition, not just in a footballing sense. Your problem should be with the laws of the game not the lad trying his best to play within them

Posted by blade on 03/02/2010

To the Editor - Actually there were just 3 players having a go at the ref, and many of the rest were waving for the Dr.s, not the whole team as you so joyously point out. And where was Shawcross... wasn't he just as distraught... and you have absolutely no idea what would and wouldn't be said by Rooney if the incident had happened? yes, commendable that Whelan helped him... certainly wasn't your whole team, though... one player...
and I have gone back and watched the film, and Shawcross knew exactly what he was doing by kicking through the area like he did... the lunge with the right leg was bad but acceptable, but the absolute full force swing through with the left leg, which is by the way what broke Aaron's leg in the first place, is what is dangerous and malicious. He did that on purpose. How do I know this? Because, just like him I have been in a similar situation, and I (though I'm not proud of the fact) did exactly the same thing.

Editor Comment - That's very honest of you blade but I would refute the suggestion he did IT on purpose, depends what you mean by IT, if IT was tackle hard and if you take the man as well as the ball then yes he is guilty as are hundreds of others every Saturday, if IT was breaking his leg then no he did not do IT on purpose. Eyes on the ball, studs down, laces up and he was done by the speed, it's a horrible accident

Posted by Jeff B on 03/02/2010

Please take the trouble to look at the slow motion footage of the incident, just prior to the tackle Shawcross has made a heavy touch to the ball that has taken the ball away from him so he naturally stretches to regain possession, at this moment Ramsey can clearly be seen approaching the tackle like a long jumper landing in a sandpit with both feet off the ground, an action which removes any chance of controlling the speed of his approach. Okay he gets to the ball first and knocks it away but his actions have already committed him to the inevitable collision with Shawcross who is trying to scoop the ball away from him. Look carefully at the footage and then ask yourself if Ramsey is himself being a little too over ambitious and reckless in his bid to win the ball.

Editor Comment - Good points Jeff, there are some great links which I can't put on here as well as slow mo's and Ramsey does appear to have both feet off the ground to try and nick the ball away by which point Ryan is already committed - a 50/50 all the way

Posted by Hammo on 03/02/2010

As a Stoke fan, i can say that the article is rather biased. However whatever anybody says be it Stoke or Arsenal fan, each is only going to have a biased opinion of things. Neither can change the decisions that have been made.
Pulis and Stoke have every right to appeal the ban and would probably be succesful but in order to show respect to Ramsey, they have decided against it. So all the Arsenal fans can stop berating Stoke as a club and accept that the situation has been dealt with in a mature manner. As a Stoke fan, i accept the fact the Wenger is a great manager, whilst proven to be an arrogant, selfish ******.

Posted by Patrick on 03/03/2010

It is hard to believe a lot of these comments by Arsenal fans here. Ryan Shawcross went into a 50/50 tackle half a second late, and the unfortunate result was Ramsey breaking his leg.

It was definitely not a malicious tackle and it was definitely not deserving of a red card. I understand why he got it, because the injury was so bad.

I am just sick of Wenger's constant whining. The guy needs to start being a man, and stop blaming all of his teams problems and injuries on the referees and other players. Injuries like this happen in any sport, and Arsenal will never win EPL unless they start playing like they are in the EPL

Posted by arshavinist on 03/03/2010

How many times does it need to be said - Wenger did not attack the character of Shawcross, only the tackle.

Editor Comment - He said spare me the comments on how nice the lad is, this is no coincidence - looks like an attack to me

Posted by David on 03/03/2010

Taped the game, so I was able to watch the contact between Ramsey and Shawcross in slow motion. Arsenal player kicked the ball into Shawcross's chest/abdomen. Shawcross then kicked the ball once, playing it forward and was chasing the ball for his next kick. Shawcross was momentarily in control of the ball. It was a bit in front of him and Ramsey raced in and then lunged at the ball, extended a leg, kicking the ball as Shawcross took that next kick. Shawcross was a fraction of a second late, but was being pulled from behind by an Arsenal player, which slowed him down in pursuing the ball. It has been called a very hard challenge and a tackle. I'm not sure if a player having control of a ball can be described as challenging or tackling. He was playing the ball.....and was being interfered with by an Arsenal player. I don't think it was a red card, I think the penalty given later was referee activism to offset an horrific injury. That's what I saw. A nightmare collision.

Posted by Zeezu on 03/03/2010

I dont think there was any malice in it, but if you play overly aggressive you should be accountable for any consequences of it.

I cant beleive the major point of support for your arguement is Shawcross' good character. Are all reckless drivers sadists to be punished for their 'accidents' ?

You follow this up by trying to defame Arsenals character for having non-English players and destroying the English game. Take up politics, you'll do great!!

Come on then FA, sort this out please! Chin up Ramsay and Arsenal.

Editor Comment - Not trying to defame anything, I'm saying that the English laws and allowances are no more an issue than fielding an entirely foreign team

Posted by tito on 03/03/2010

Hey whittaker why the hell does it matter that your some of your team came over to tend to ramsey?? what point are you proving when you say this there isnt much of a point.. at all.. the physios were out there within a minute maybe even less and when they got there bendtner and eboue were there so if the rest of the team wants to yell at the ref and stoke players why does it matter? if the arsenal players had stood over ramsey would that have made the injury any better? would it have helped his BROKEN LEG mend any better no! but you keep saying it like there is a point to it but i just cant see one maybe you need to enlighten me or maybe you should pull your head out of your...........

Editor Comment - The point was that the Arsenal players' priority was getting Ryan sent off instead of rushing to their fallen team mate making sure he didn't look at his injury and keeping his airways clear and letting the Ref do his job

Posted by Chino on 03/03/2010

This is a moronic piece.No one is condemning him!Its a shame what happened but you cannot deny that teams are told to ruffle the arsenal team. However,that is not what caused this. It was simply a young,inexperienced defender trying to win a ball he overran, which is something that is done in the playgrounds. Its a shame though for Ramsey!

Editor Comment - I agree that through the media teams are encouraged to not try and beat the best technical team at their own game rather concentrate on a weakness of theirs which we have always done - 1 booking in 3 games this season and it was yours yet we still won 2 of those games..

Posted by Ben Barclay on 03/03/2010

This kind of thing happens all the time in Canadian Hockey.

The players aren't trying to break each other's legs, but that is not the point. The tackles are reckless and unnecessary, and with better training and steeper consequences, these types of "accidents" would happen far less.

They aren't all accidents though. We had one this year where Patrice Cormier jumped off his bench and went out and head-hunted a 19 year old with his head down in the neutral zone (both travelling 15 mph in opposite directions).

The victim lay on the ice twitching for 5 minutes. That was nasty, and Cormier got a year suspension.

Editor Comment - Sounds nasty, you'd think by some of the comments here that's exactly what Shawcross did..

Posted by xxx on 03/03/2010

if rooney were to be treated like that, I wonder if you can still say the same??

Editor Comment - Yes I would and like when he broke his foot before a big tournament he apportioned no blame..

Posted by Jackson on 03/03/2010

Dear Mr. Whittaker,

After reading your article, I'm sure anything that have to do with English... be it English players, English Managers, English that .. english this... is always right. Other that that.. it's utter rubbish... "ohh.. he's not that kind of player" one commented.... "he's a good lad really" said another. The list goes on and on and on.... Wait a tick... Arsenal's not an english outfit... they have no english players playing... Hmmmm....

Fact is, you and other football pundits, journalist and clueless managers are responsible for painting an image that Arsenal can be roughed em' up.... the only way to stop Arsenal is to get in their faces... So, like or or not.. the blood is in your hands too..

Well, looking at the bright side, England's hopes of getting through the world cup semi-final should be a breeze as opponents will be scared sh**less at the sight of england players... thugs and bullies... ready to roughed em' up and break a leg... so to speak...

Editor Comment - I have agreed that the media do encourage teams to concentrate on Arsenal's weakness much as they concentrate on other teams lack of technique, if players are rough they get booked - again we have played you three games this season and not been booked and won two of those?

Posted by Tyler on 03/03/2010

One of the best blog posts I have ever read.

Wenger gets furious every time something like this happens and goes about cursing the English game yet he still chooses to manage in England. I for one love the football his team plays and their commitment to the beautiful game but I also believe that players need to roll up their sleeves and go to battle every now and then. Arsenal dont have that anymore and that is the reason they have not won anything lately. As for the challenge, I feel terrible for Ramsey and Shawcross but that is the nature of the game. Accidents happen and anyone who cannot live with that, there is a wonderful sport called Curling that might be a better option.

Editor Comment - Cheers Tyler, Wenger's comments from 2002 make interesting reading about how he loves the blood and thunder of the English game and it would be ruined without it..

Posted by jamaican j on 03/03/2010

I'm a jamaican living in Canada who follows Stoke for Fuller but also regularly watch Arsenal as they are a genuinely entertaining side.

Two points. First: There's only one victim here, and that's the boy with his leg in four pieces and possibly no more career. To claim otherwise is, frankly, morally reprehensible.

Second: There's a conflict between you and Mr. Wenger in terms of a vision of football. You're no less guilty than him of believing that yours is the only way. But really, if the best way to play the game is with technically skilled players always a fraction of a second's timing away from horrific injury because their opponents need to show how tough and "committed" they are, expect the worldwide tv audience to side with Mr. Wenger. There's a reason I'd rather watch two mid-table Spanish or Brazilian sides play than see Stoke and Bolton kick each other off the pitch!

Editor Comment - I like watching Arsenal play but Wenger seems to want every other team to play to his new rules and not the ones that brought him success or that 19 other teams play to..

As you will have noted 99% of the support has been for Shawcross as opposed to Wenger so it seems the rest of the media are in agreement. As a fan whio watches Fuller I'm surprised you would elect not to see him use his incredible skill, he is just one part of Stoke, we can pass, we can backheel, we can defend, we can attack, we can be physical, all are in our armour, can Arsenal say the same?

Posted by TD on 03/03/2010

I can only assume Mr. Whittaker hasn't actually watched the incident in question, despite his assertion to the contrary. Bobby McMahon was dead on in his appraisal: "It wasn't a tackle; it was an assault." Shawcross had no prayer of contacting the ball, but he "scythed in" (again in Bobby's formulation) to make sure he at least "got up in" Ramsey. You don't have to be an Arser to see it was a reckless challenge - "reckless" meaning "unconcerned about the consequences". No one doubts Shawcross didn't premeditate his crippling of Ramsey, but he wasn't worried enough about it to not make that horrendous challenge. And that's not sport.

Editor Comment - Why would I write about something I hadn't seen - pointless comment that devaules any subsequent arguement. As for Bobby McMahon, would you take an amateur footballer's view who had spent more time in Canada than his native Scotland over someone like Stewart Robson or Lee Dixon?

Posted by kevin macmillan on 03/03/2010

Tragic for Ramsay.

However, it was a robust challenge from both players - the type you see week in week out.

At this level, football is played with such intensity and speed it is inevitable.

Editor Comment - Thanks Kevin, the most interesting views so far have been from the neutrals..

Posted by Jim on 03/03/2010

"Ryan Shawcross should hold his head high over the whole affair and Stoke City rightly take the moral high ground over all that has happened in the aftermath, perhaps if Wenger had the decency to look back over the last few years of mediocrity, he would realise it is exactly characters like Shawcross his team so desperately needs."

What absolute drivel. Insisting that there is a "moral high ground" to be taken when a 19 year old has his leg broken and entire career threatened is ridiculous. For someone so in tune with Shawcross' apparently exemplary character, you neglect to even mention his previous indiscretions. Quit acting like Shawcross is some kind of saint, and accept what he did, and has done in the past, is reckless.

Editor Comment - The moral high ground was over any Wenger was attempting to take. If he had curbed his criticism of this particular individual he might have got a sensible discussion on the real issue which is why teams are allowed to be so physical..

Posted by AndrewAdelaide on 03/03/2010

Well James you've certainly stirred up a bit of emotion with this column! The TV highlights package I watched in Australia only showed the incident once and in real time - so I can't offer an opinion on whether the tackle was badly judged or malicions. But it's sad to see that most of the replies are very openly blaming Shawcross.

The game we love has many dimensions - it's great to see the silky skills of Ronaldo, Kaka, Robinho, Walcott, Defoe, Ramsay, Giggs, etc etc but it's also important to recognise the dimension brought to the best of teams (and the game itself) by the likes of Shawcross, Viera, (Roy) Keane, Rednapp, Terry, Vidic etc etc. Get over yourselves people the game needs honest and complete commitment and every so often things will happen as a result. It's been that way for 100+ years. I would much rather see the odd (but very unfortunate) incident like this than see a game where the physicality is legislated out.

Editor Comment - Thanks for your comments Andrew, I think it's great to be able to witness a full blooded, well timed challenge taking the ball being met with as much of a cheer as a goal - you can't take that away, yet it is slowly becomming something we see less and less

Posted by Arsenal4life on 03/03/2010

whoever is the idiot who wrote this article must be stupid not to notice how many times teams say they have to stop arsenal playing to win...that's the problem with england.

No one wants to play creative attacking football against arsenal. This thinking is all the way through the english game and is why they will not win the WC either. They only have Rooney who is a technically gifted player and maybe joe cole...the others are worthless. Wilshere of course will change that one day

Editor Comment - We played you three times this season and beat you twice with no bookings..

Posted by Monorock on 03/03/2010

Almost every one here is having a go at Shawcross, no surprise here they are are Arsenal fan.

Couple questions. How Shawcross could have possibly gone in for a reckless tackle, when ball was a 50/50? and he actually had procession prior to that? So it was his ball to try to keep? Yes the ball did get away from him a bit but it was no where near Ramsay to start off with.

Who was the one flying in from nowhere tackling for the ball? Ramsey himself. I wouldn't even call Shawcross's a tackle. He wanted to protect the ball that was getting away from him and he went in hard. Its nothing more than an accident. Not too smart of a move from Ramsey part if anything.

Editor Comment - This is something that people are now seeing, I couldn't believe when I saw the slow mo's that Ramsey had lunged in to nick the ball away and naturally having no weight behiond his leg was always leaving himself open to injury..

Posted by Saxplayr on 03/03/2010

Is this article in defense of Shawcross or an attack on Wenger?

Editor Comment - A bit of both ;)

Posted by rapo on 03/03/2010

First off whats going on?.. i made comments over 12 hours ago and they havent been posted.. there was nothing abusive or anything wrong with them.. so can u please tell me why they arent posted???

Editor Comment - They should be up now rapo, apologies for the delay..

Posted by wei on 03/03/2010

Well i shall get straight to the point, "it was Stoke players who were caring for the injured Ramsey whilst his own colleagues were looking away or chasing after the referee demanding a red card. That says more about their own characters than that of the Stoke team", because if you were watching the match carefully i suppose u could see the Arsenal players with tears streaming out of their eyes. These tears are a symbol of mental wounds caused by the similar injury done to Eduardo. It shows the fear that any of them could receive a similiar injury anytime, and also just how sad and mentally disturbed they are about another one of their comrades receiving such a horrific injury. Moreover there were players like Eboure who did care for Aaron when he was on the ground. Its unfair to pinpoint at the Arsenal players for not showing their concern to their injured comrade, when the fact is they are going through a mental turmoil after seeing the 3rd similar case happening in like just 5 years

Editor Comment - I'm pretty sure neither Campbell or Vermalen were there for either of the other two breaks off the top of my head and they were the two closest..

Posted by Dan on 03/03/2010

Oh,btw, Gareth Bale is clearly Wales' most promising talent. Not Ramsey.

Editor Comment - Controversial :)

Posted by Anon on 03/03/2010

A decent read, until you started being illogical and began blaming AFC players for acting disgracefully. What game were u watching? By the way, intent is irrelevant. It was reckless and avoidable. Three times in four years!!! That my friend is the real issue at hand. And all at the hand of Englishmen.

Abou Diaby: The French midfielder suffered a broken and dislocated ankle following a terrible tackle by Sunderland defender Dan Smith in May 2006.
Time out: 8 months

Eduardo: The Croatian’s badly broken right leg, caused by a tackle from Birmingham’s Martin Taylor, contributed to Arsenal’s end-of-season slump in 2008.
Time out: 12 months

Aaron Ramsey: Ryan Shawcross’s clumsy tackle on the teenager left him with a double fracture of his right leg that required emergency surgery.
Time out: At least 6 months

Editor Comment - The article is in defence of Shawcross, people keep saying 3 times in 4 years like Ryan committed them all. He has taken the brunto ft he frustration for injuring someone in a 50/50 challenge, watch how Ramsey has both feet off the ground lunging to nick the ball away giving his leg no support, both are equally as responsible/innocnet, it's just one came out worse than the other..

Posted by Mike on 03/03/2010

People boast all the time about how "physical" (read: violent) the Premier League is, and in particular the common wisdom says that if you're Stoke and you want to beat Arsenal then you need to rough them up. That's what Wenger means when he says it's no coincidence. If I were Fabregas I'd be bolting for La Liga asap. Why sit around waiting for some team of idiots to ruin your career because it helps mask how poor the rest of their game is?

Editor Comment - The Premier League is the most watched league in the world because of that heritage. If Wenger was talking about the wider issue why did he say no coincidence after saying spare me how nice the lad is..

As for the rest of our game, we have beaten you twice this season with no bookings so we're doing alright I'd say

Posted by Peter on 03/03/2010

"Mr Whittaker, I have to say I'm really saddened and disappointed by these remarks.

I can actually agree with you that what happened was an accident, and while Stoke isn't exactly famous for the finesse of his players I believe no malice was involved.

Having said so, your unabashed accolades for the "English Game", tackles that are at the very least reckless, and laudably courageous, but just as devoid of any real skill plumbers who pathetically try to hack and grind the ball into the net.....
all of this is the "soccer" that was in England, and is finally slowly disappearing thanks to the influence of the "mediocrity" of Arsenal's beautiful soccer and the skill of, mostly, imports with more brain than just brawn

Dear Mr Whittaker, real fans around the world want to see real soccer, not drunken plumbers muscling their way around a muddy pitch in preparation for a pub brawl later the same night

The sooner you and your "soccer" disappear4, the better for everybody else

Editor Comment - Do you think we should remove the art of tackling? Do you not think after losses to other members of the big 4 that your lack of physical presence wasn't an issue, especially the Chelsea game, it was men and boys. Other teams mix up their play and personnel and adapt ot different games, Chelsea were also great and physical against us, it was a great game that they nicked in extra time

Posted by kyle on 03/03/2010

I am a fan of neither of the teams involved. I think this is a fantastic article, albeit biased. This is a sport - players get hurt, usually it's forwards - they get tackled. That is how the game works, forwards try and score, defenders try to take the ball from them. The mentality at Arsenal is to play a certain way, that's fine, however there will be teams that don't play that way in England. If Arsenal does not understand that it is their ignorance.

Wenger is on my nerves, so there is some bias there, being quick to search for another excuse why his team hasn't won or beaten "inferior" teams, which is hilarious because if you lost, you're inferior. It is unfortunate that this has happened frequently to his team, bad luck and upsetting - maybe it is something to remedy, work on tackling, it's not 5 a side, its England - instead of passing around the box. It is a shame for both players, the focus, our thoughts should be with them, not Wenger's scoffing, he sits on the sideline.

Editor Comment - Unfortunately Wenger paints a target on himself after most losses or decisions against him ,it's what we all expect and it's how he lacks credibility when trying to make a serious point

Posted by Antoine Hoppenot on 03/03/2010

You are a disgrace. You're practically saying that Wenger bringing good, technical soccer has been a bad evolution to the English game. I just dont understand what youre looking for when you turn on your TV on saturdays and sunday. Do you enjoy watching late, two footed, bone crushing slide tackles? You can not injure three different played by accident. No matter the intentions, a nineteen year old is lying in a hospital bed with a leg that has been destroyed by a THUG. This has to be taken out of the game if we want football to keep evolving into the beautiful game that it should be. When people call football the beautiful game I dont think they were talking about the late, bone crushing tackles that unskilled, thuggish defenders make every game. You're the reason this keeps happening. People aren't ready to start blaming the players for this sort of tackle and this is why this keeps happening. Defense should be just as much of an art as offense, injuring shouldnt be part of the game.

Editor Comment - So why does this only happen to Arsenal and not any other teams? Scratch that, it happend to Delap two years ago, only Pulis was more professional and dignified in accepting that was a part of the game, a part of the game Wenger used to Champion as he picked up more Red Cards than motorway miles

Posted by jason on 03/03/2010

If all players go 100% in a tackle not knowing if he could make the ball, football would be so violent? When you know you might not be able to make it, please don't go in with a tackle with full strength, DUH. Ryan's tackle was late, and he kicked Ramsey's leg as if it was the ball. Just ridiculous. And of course he did not mean it. Take this analogy hull city idiots: a driver who crashed his car four times in a snowy town could be the nicest guy in the neighborhood; the 5th time he crashed his car, his parent point to the icy road surface, saying it is the nature of the road so you can't blame him. DUH his license needs to be suspended for a reason!! So don't say violent tackles are part of football!!

Editor Comment - Hull City idiots?! There's no need for that level of insult..


Posted by Anon on 03/03/2010

When you go in hard for a challenge like that, you call it passion and commitment? Did you ever play football Mr Whittaker? If someone came in like that on me, I'll be baying for blood. Shawcross wasn't just tackling, he went kicking in with all his strength for a ball which he wasn't even favorite for.

Those who support Shawcross should probably put yourselves in Ramsey's shoes. How would you like it if your promising career is potentially ended at such a young age because of a over zealous tackle by a overly committed player?

A reckless and extremely hard tackle by a player with history of bad tackles, injurying a promising player. Reckless players should be stamped out!

The furore over beckham breaking his metartasal because of a challenge a few years was worse

Editor Comment - All stupid comparisons to road accidents will now not be published such is the stupidity at trying to draw parallels.

Posted by ACE on 03/03/2010

Badly written article which is completely off course. Even as a non arsenal fan i find that this is a very biased article.

Editor Comment - Errr, it's a Stoke page...of course there is going to be bias

Posted by Welisha on 03/03/2010

I believe to write a good article, one have to be on middle ground instead of trying to side one or accused another. In wenger's shoe, having hearing opponents mentioning on news tt the way to beat Arsenal is to give them hard tackles etc, is there anyone in the world would love such comments against their teams? Try mentioning that all the time on other teams? i believe they would make the same comments too.

To be fair, was it a malicious tackle? Obviously not! Was it a reckless tackle to make a point that Stoke is not a pushover? Only Stoke will know. I think its unfair to keep criticising Wenger. I don think we deny the fact that it is important to play hard but i suspect many times the thought and intepretation of playing hard had become an attitude of "just give it to him regardless if its a foul and let me feel some pain and hard knocks". Is tt what it meant by playing hard? if tt is, than all the fairplay EPL is trying to instill or publiscised is all pointless and for show.

Posted by SM on 03/03/2010

To speak about yellow cards , stoke has received 50 cards compared to arsenals 42 and not to mention 2 red cards. its not about the matches we played against you . its about the type of game that one is playing. i m not saying that since we have 8 yellow cards less we are better but the game we play clearly is far better than what you play and that too aided by a throwing freak.In the last 3 games we played against you, each time we were defeated due to the 'dellap throw'.I agree we are having some difficulty in defending the throw ins but we will see how long you can do the same thing.

Editor Comment - You obviously missed the two goals we scored on the break to knock you out of the FA Cup. To attempt to claim a fair play moral high ground using a difference of 8 cards is a bit desperate..

As for calling Delap a freak, is Fabregas a freak too for having good set pieces from the ground, because that's all it is, a set piece and the fact you deride it yet still fail to cope with it is even more hilarious..

Posted by gunning on 03/03/2010

I hope he breaks ROONEY's leg,accidentally of course, lets see where you go from there Mr. STOKE CITY Whittaker,

thats why you ENGLISH will never win the world cup or anyothe cup for that matter.

Editor Comment - You criticise him for breaking someone's leg then hope he breaks someone else's? Nice logic there to add to your xenophobia

Posted by ~YNWA~ on 03/03/2010

i saw the challenge again & again, & yet, i still think it is an accident.... it was a committed 50/50 full-hearted challenge where ryan also run the chance of breaking his own leg. it wasnt like he went in studs up but he just swung his leg at the ball, aaron did the same actually.... without taking into account his previous tackle, this is totally accidental and i think why arsenal have those 3 injuries have to be down to the way they play.... which i think is the best footballing side in EPL but somehow when they play those short, attractive passes, they are open to challenges.

i dont think arsenal should change the way they play bcuz it's a joy to watch them play but they must also be smart when to pull out of some challenges as well. to b frank, ryan could have pull out of the tackle but so did aaron, so they both are committed to get the ball just that aaron was unlucky to get his foot stuck to the grass i think.

Posted by chandraraj on 03/03/2010

A truly rubbish article. Coming from a supporter whose team can't even string three decent passes, not surprising!

I don't understand all these "english grit", "english game" rubbish! What have you achieved with all that? European cup, World Cup?

You can't equate red cards with dirty player. Many a times I have seen refrees giving red cards for nothing! The red card given to Ryan is not the question here. He broke someone's leg with a reckless swing. That's the contention. Can he hold his head high for that? Go figure out.

Editor Comment - Please watch the replay when we knocked you out of the FA Cup, I seem to remember there being quite a few passes for the last two goals..

Posted by dan on 03/03/2010

there was no intent by shawcross, regardless of whatever reputation he has. the injury was a freak incident, but shawcross was very reckless. He came in late, hard, and high--hardly something to "hold his head up high" about as your article states--and the consequences of his actions should and will be a heavy burden for him to bear no matter what any pundit or ex-pro says in his defense. (btw bendtner's tug is inconsequential--it may have slowed shawcross down, but he had time to pull out of the tackle.)

What is the witchhunt you are referring to? as you state shawcross's detractors in the media are far and few between. is it from the arsenal blogs--who cares? wenger only spoke of the challenge and was careful not to mention shawcross by name (compare his post match interview with his response to eduardo's injury). there are legitimate defenses of shawcross, but with such scattered and biased arguments your article is easy to dismiss. but it has sparked a good debate!

Editor Comment - Thanks Dan, the witch hunt was from Wenger's comments which were irresponsible. Also, please rewatch the incident and look at the stills as it is clear that Ryan's foot is sweeping along the ground laces up and it's Ramsay who lunges in a split second before before locking his tuds in the turf..

Posted by ianyee on 03/03/2010

Mr Whittaker, I agree that this whole witch-hunt surrounding Shawcross is slightly unfair - the red card and trauma from witnessing Ramsay's injury should provide the lesson he needs about sensible tackling.

But your arguments to support it sound terribly biased, as is the manner in which you put your "editor comments" after every comment posted in response to this article.

You've had your say, now let the readers have theirs. Stop putting a spin on their comments.

As far as I'm concerned, the matter is done and dusted - Shawcross obviously regrets the challenge, he has been punished by the ref, and Wenger has every right to be emotional and to say what he did in the immediate aftermath - he's not a robot. What's lef to say but wish Ramsay, an amazing talent, the quickest of recoveries?

Editor Comments - I thought my comments were constructive enough in light of the criticism and abuse received, most of which hasn't been published. Much as the readers comment on my words I am merely commenting on their own, if they make a stupid or factually incorrect statement it would be remiss of me not to respond..

I just want the weekend to come so all this will stop being talked about, either that or another scandal to take the attention elsewhere..

Posted by posh on 03/03/2010

Oh, life is a devil. Of all things a soccer fan can support, is it the sort of play that breaks other players' legs? Or for those that are supporting Shawcross in this regard, is it because it was not your player whose leg was broken? Or is it that you hate Arsenal? Oh, please, put your acts together. The truth is that sort of play is uncalled for in a game. Trying to prevent a team from playing by using rough playing style is nonsense. Eventhough the tackle was not meant to break legs, what would you expect from such rough, reckless tackle? Anything!! It is a big shame for a soccer fan to support tackles that are tragic, be it that your team has a rough style of play or not. That kind of tackle could end someone's LIFE easily. And you are proud of it? Oh, you are irritating!!!

Editor Comment - Greetings posh, you say rough playing style, this is a style that defends the same as your style attacks, it is all within the laws of the game the same as we have throw ins, also in the rules believe it or not. I am proud of my team and their commitment when they go on the field, it seems 99% of people who have commented on the matter professionally agree with me - keep an eye out for Owen Coyle's quote which is spot on..

Posted by Zack Foster on 03/03/2010

"The way the Arsenal players acted immediately after the incident was disgraceful..."

This coming from a Stoke fan who singing "He only got one leg". Classy and why dont you give Shawcross the drying towel to dry his tears of guilt for committing such horrendous tackle.

Editor Comment - I despise the people that did that but I most certainly did not and I hope the club finds and bans them - would you expect me to stick up for them?

Posted by Matt on 03/03/2010

I find it a bit confusing that in your article you wrote how Arsenal of old (you named Adams, Winterburn, Petit, and Viera) had an English core (despite only half of the players you named being English) and first attacked them for getting too many red cards and later said the 'new' Arsenal are 'killing the fabric and intensity of the English game'...the paragraph implies that the 'old' Arsenal, the one you criticize for being rough, are better for the English game than the 'new'; if that is the case, why did you criticize their disciplinary record? It seems like that is what you are praising.

There are a lot of posters here criticizing the Arsenal manager's comments after the game as being biased and offensive - but don't you see that your comments and attacks on him are biased and offensive as well? I think we should recognize that bias is in the eye of the beholder.

Editor Comment - Hi Matt, I think many would argue that the Old Arsenal WERE good for the English game as they provided genuine competition year in year out, could compete physically as well as techniquely. The reason I brought up, not criticised, their disciplinary record is that Arsenal fans and Wenger seem to paint you as some hard done by Angels of the game and I'm saying it is hypocritical to criticise the methods which brought so much success..

Posted by Rich on 03/03/2010

Hi,

Love the show, you offer up great debate day in day out and i've been listening with interest over the Shawcross \ Ramsey debate

But i'm doubting the media is causing a conspiracy against Shawcross.

Photos printed in the papers Monday clearly indicate that Ramseys leg was clearly broken BEFORE Shawcross even made contact. FACT!

Look at it again and tell all us Stokies who are discussing this heavily online why the photos prove every complaint against our player is false!!!!!

Rich

Editor Comment - Arsenal fans have failed to 'see' that one Rich or the fact he lunged into the tackle himself, as well he should seeing as we are playing a contact sport before anyone jumps on the comment..

Posted by PompeyBurnaby on 03/03/2010

Shawcross is a thug, pure and simple.

The tackle was terrible, and his past form shows that he's a leg breaker.

Shouldn't be allowed back on a pitch, let alone be called up to the England squad.

And Stoke and Tony Pulis are nothing but garbage.

Editor Comment - Garbage that have beaten you twice already this season...ouch

Posted by Aaron on 03/03/2010

Editor you totally confuse me. Are you saying the tackle is acceptable because Arsenal players have previously done poor tackles? No, it should be that all bad tackles are punished, whether it be that Gallas shocker against Bolton or Shawcross against Ramsey.

Btw, honestly look at Wenger's comments. He never said that Shawcross is bad. He just said spare me the comments about what a good guy he is (which is what alot of people are saying, yourself included). Wenger was trying to make a more general point that this has happened too many times to be mere coincidence. That's not to say Shawcross wanted to break Ramsey's leg - if he did he would do to prison, but that's clearly not the case. The problem is the view that getting stuck is the way to beat Arsenal. What that means is that players are more aggressive which leads to these types of mistimed challenges. Wenger never wanted to specifically vilify Stoke or Shawcross, but were more lamenting the punishment his players suffer.

Editor Comment - No, I'm not saying the result was acceptable I was pointing out the irony of people calling Stoke dirty when your recent successes were built on a hard fought game.

The comments by Wenger in the same breath as his comments about Ryan were 'Don't tell me how nice the lad is this is no coincidence' - that's pretty damning to me..

Posted by Aaron on 03/03/2010

This Rooney analogy that apparently Rooney would never complain as its part and parcel of the game and using the metatarsal break as a comparison. The metatarsal break is the definition of an innocuous challenge - this is the type of challenge seen all the time and is was clearly just unfortunate. The Shawcross challenge was not something we see all the time, and that's the difference. Players do ACLs and MCLs all the time without being touched, and that's apart of the game. Similarly, there are occassions where robust tackles end up with players getting a fractured bone or torn ligaments and again that happens. However, its very rare for a player to break a leg as bad as Ramsey did through a regulation challenge. That was not a 50/50 - a 50/50 would be as if they both hit the ball at the same time. If that happened and Ramsey broke his leg, then noone would dream of criticising Shawcross, but that's not the case. It was a bad tackle and you're in denial if you can't see that.

Editor Comment - If you think we don't see tackles like that all the time you have your eyes shut, they may not lead to breaks but they happen in every single game up and down the country including your own

A 50/50 isn't the players getting equal power behind a challenge, it is when the ball is inbetween them and both challenge for it, which is exactly what this was..

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/03/2010

Apologies for the comments which haven't gone up yet made since 11pm last night, I will get through as many as I can at lunch and do the rest later this afternoon. ALL comments appreciated bar the abusive ones of course :)

Posted by classical hero on 03/03/2010

As a Manchester fan I would be saying the exact same thing about this if a player like Rooney was injured in a tackle, in like manner. Unfortunately such incidents happen, which is why people wear shins guards to help lessen the chance of this happening. In a competitive game split seconds are this difference in many things. I have seen far worse tackles than this one happen and nothing happened to either player. Perhaps the aftermath of this is that we allow manager time to collect themselves after a game so that there emotions are not running high

Editor Comment - The Rooney arguement put to bed at last!!!!

Posted by Matt on 03/03/2010

Arsenal fans - stop moaning.

It was an accident, it says it all that capello himself reviewed the incident and still gave him a place in the england squad. Every player who takes their place on a football pitch knows their are risks when going in 50/50. Ramsey and Ryan went flying in, Ramsey was quickest, that challenge could take place 100 times, and there would be nobody hurt - thats why its an accident.

Ryan is a class act and a quality centre half.

Hope to see Aaron back on the pitch soon...

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/03/2010

Quotes from Owen Coyle, a big fan of Wenger and the Arsenal Style...

Coyle rejected suggestions Arsenal are specifically given over-the-top treatment by rivals.
"They are special players, no doubt about that, but there is no way in the world that anyone would go out to intentionally hurt or maim any player," he said. "Ramsey is a terrific talent and is going to be a top player but there's no way that was intentional to hurt him."
Coyle said there was a crucial difference between being competitive and reckless

"If you're not motivated to go out there and be aggressive to begin with, to earn the right to play, then you're going to be run over the top of and made to look foolish," he said.

"We all take pride in trying to make our players competitive, to go and earn the right, as we say in football, but there's no way you'd say 'Go and smash this and that'."

Spot on...

Posted by Adam on 03/03/2010

There's a fine line between good journalism and sponsored claptrap. This article is as reckless as Shawcross' play.

Editor Comment - You're entitled to your opinion, as are the other 99% of professionals within the game who disagree with you..

Posted by LouieIsTheKing on 03/03/2010

Time for a little history lesson:

Stoke City Football Club is a football club based in Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, England. Founded in 1863, Stoke is the oldest club in the Premier League, and thought to be the second oldest professional football club in the world, after Notts County.

What would arsene and his flock be moaning about if it wasn't for the likes of Stoke City? Probably the dropped points of a damaged demi-plié.

He would do well to learn to keep his mouth shut and learn some humility in the manner of true 'Greats' such as our own Sir Stanley Matthews and Gordon Banks.

Posted by arshavinist on 03/03/2010

He said "spare me the comments on how nice the lad is, this is no coincidence" - looks like an attack to me

------------------------

Think you're reading too much into it. Shawcross could be the pope for all he cares, but a bad tackle is a bad tackle regardless of one's character.

Editor Comment - It is but his choice of words was poor in this instance and brought the spotlight further still onto Shawcross. Had it been a studs up, knee high challenge then fair enough but for a 50/50 which is part of the game every week to villify him so is not fair.

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/04/2010

Walcott now defending Shawcross too - who would have thought it eh?

“He is not a player to do those sort of tackles. He will put his head down and work very hard for his club and country, I’m sure of that.”

Posted by Jun on 03/04/2010

My comment earlier about England not winning was not the main point.. and your comment about foreigners certainly has credibility as well.

But back to the point, I believe that Shawcross did not mean to do it on purpose. But you cannot rationalize his tackle. Yes, it was 50/50 and they were probably caught in the heat of the action, but the tackle itself was just "BAD" in technicality. It was very, VERY high and he jumped onto the ball much earlier than Ramsey, so I felt it was more like 60/40 or 75/25, he could have controlled his tackle!(well.. at least it wasnt studs up)

I am sure Ryan Shawcross is a fantastic lad but it has nothing to do with whether he is a nice guy or not. He needs to improve his tackling that is it.

I agree with you James that we can't fault the boy for playing with a heart, as an Arsenal fan, even I believe we need a player (defender) like Ryan.

But seriously that kind of challenge belongs in Championships and under.

Running out of characters..

Editor Comment - Hi Jun, agree with all that apart from the fact that the tackle was high when it wasn't, if you watch the slow mo's again and study the pictures after being dragged back, the ball was between the two, Shawcross, eyes on ball and studs down swept his left leg at it, Ramsey came from nowhere, both feet off the ground before nicking the ball away a millisecond before Ryan's foot got there buty Rmasey such was his thrust and lunge (for want of a better term) that his standing leg was left exposed with no weight behind ut...it was an accident and in most people's opinion a 50/50 - the definition of which is a ball inbetween two players waiting to won..

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/05/2010

Over 300 messages of support for Ryan.....from Arsenal fans - at least there are some sensible ones out there too

Lee Dixon and Walcott both saying it was an accident as well as Don Howe, his comments below on the career ending tackle he suffered..

"We were just two committed men trying to win the ball - I believe it was the same between Ramsey and Shawcross.

"It was two players going for it, two players trying to win the ball and they made contact. Unfortunately for our boy, he came out of it badly. But it could have been the other way around..."

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/05/2010

I've mentioned the Gallas tackle of a couple of months back a few times, I just wanted to post Wenger's reaction to this over the ball studs up challenge..

"There was a bit of an over reaction with the way it was treated, yes," said Wenger. "If it is a bad, malicious tackle I can understand that it is shown every half an hour, but the way that happened, it can happen every game.

"I said after the game if Gallas has injured the player, we are sorry, we will have a look at the tackle and if it is malicious we will come out and make a statement.

"We looked at it carefully and we saw that it was just a mistimed tackle.

"That is why we didn't see why such a story could flare up and make a national story if the intention of the player was completely right"

Arsene Wenger - Hypocrite of the highest order..

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/05/2010

We knew Wenger had no class and he has once again proved it with his comments this afternoon laying the blame at Shawcross' feet saying it was intentional..

Well Stoke didn't appeal the Red, which we easily could have done, out of respect for the situation and have showed nothing but professionalism and humility and once again Wenger embaresses himself and the English game.

Pathetic

Posted by jamaican j on 03/05/2010

Okay, my friend, you're just choosing to read things in a way that lets you feel self-righteous.

If you read the comments from the prematch press conference, Wenger specifically said it was NOT intentional, but that a tackle can be unacceptably bad without there being "intent." Quoting him, when you "go in too physical, that does not mean it is intention, but there is danger." I agree with that - a driver who is out of control may not intend to cause a smash-up, but he still must be held responsible when he does.

Regarding your comments about my countryman Fuller, to be honest I wish he played a little more under control as well. He commits too many cynical little shoves and pushes trying to get an advantage over defenders and giving away free kicks...if he'd use his fantastic strength and fitness in a more controlled way I think he could be a really top player, but as it is I watch him more out of national pride than because of the style of football he's playing with Stoke.

Editor Comment - "high commitment demands fair intention as well" which incinuates unfair intention on Shawcross' part..the rest of the footballing world are disagreeing with him anyway so he only makes himself look more of a fool.

As for Fuller he IS a really top player, there is no player like him with that pace, that trickery, balance and strength - he has proven to be a great Premier league player and defences hate playing against him..

Posted by jamaican j on 03/05/2010

Fuller has all of ONE goal in the league this year; it's been a very frustrating season watching him. Maybe he's gone past it, but there aren't exactly a surplus of Jamaican stars to support.

Regardless, you've lost the plot. Nothing short of Wenger coming out and saying "Shawcross is the pope and Mother Teresa rolled into one" is going to satisfy you is it?

In watching the press conference, I though his comments were pretty fair and measured, and several times he seemed to be specifically saying (rather than just insinuating) that he didn't think there was "intent" in the tackle but that intent isn't the issue. But you're obviously seeing things through deeply partisan lenses.

Also, you keep saying "99%" and "99.9%" of "professionals" agree with you. But there are only 20 EPL managers, and Martinez at Wigan agrees with Wenger on the need to reign in clumsy tackling while Coyle, Pulis, and Ferguson are the only ones vocal on the other side. Not exactly 1000-1, is it?

Editor Comment - Fuller hasn't scored many goals but as you know if you watch him he provides plenty and more often than not takes defenders away from others..

As for support, let's see, we have - Pulis, Gerry Francis, Sir Alex Ferguson, Brian Laws, Roy Keane, Alan Hanson, Mark Lawrenson, Gary Linekar, Wayne Rooney, James Milner, Robbie Savage, Dennis Smith, Owen Coyle, Stewart Robson, Lee Dixon, Don Howe (all 3 ex Arsenal) amd Fabio Capello - i could add more but the point remains that Wenger is in a minority in his criticism, but I think most just roll their eyes at his theatrics after years of seeing it..

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/06/2010

Has Sir Alex been reading this?

"We had him here since he was a kid at 13," said Ferguson. "There isn't a more honest boy in the world.

"Everyone has recognised it was an honest challenge, with no malice whatsoever.

"It is one of these unfortunate, terrible accidents that happen in football.

"Ryan was distraught and you would think that registered with the Arsenal players.

"But it didn't and he has had to carry that burden.

"But he can hold his head up. He knows he is not that kind of player."

Posted by James Whittaker on 03/07/2010

What a pathetic display from Walcott in reaction to a perfectly legal and ball winning sliding tackle against Burnley yesterday - accompanied by a shoving match and Fabregas' trademark shaking of the head.

How dare Burnley have the gall to not just sit back and watch Arsenal play.

Posted by Russia on 04/01/2010

Hey very nice blog!! Man .. I will bookmark your blog and take the feeds also...

Editor Comment - Cheers Russia, they are mostly just published rants!

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About
James Whittaker James Whittaker is a football writer and ardent Stoke fan. Having moved to Leeds as a youngster his father refused to take him to his local Championship winning side and instead insisted he chose the Third Division team of his forefathers, Stoke City. Since then there has been no looking back and having been brought up on a diet of Dave Rowson, Kyle Lightbourne and John Gayle, is now embracing the dizzy heights of the top flight for the first time in his life. Fiercely loyal, though always welcoming sensible chat and debate, you can find him on Twitter @ESPN_Stoke

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