ESPN Soccernet - Correspondents - Manchester City- Why Don't Brazilians Succeed in the Premier League?

Why Don't Brazilians Succeed in the Premier League?

Posted by Wallace Poulter on 01/26/2010

Name the last Brazilian to make a major impact in the Premier League? Not a slight impact, a true significant contribution. A player who did it year on year; one of the best players in the Premier League kind of impact. I can think of only one, Juninho at Middlesbrough. Juninho was revered at Boro, still is to this day. Wore his heart on his sleeve, gave everything for the club and helped them to a League Cup.

As Robinho reportedly heads for a Manchester City exit you have to ask yourself are Brazilians a poor fit for the Premier League? It's not as if South Americans as a whole have this issue. From the days of Ricardo Villa and Osvaldo Ardiles joining Spurs in 1978 Argentinians have done well in the Premier League. Carlos Tevez and Javier Maschereno are considered two of the best at their positions in the league. Indeed more Argentinians than Germans have played in the Premier League. The occasional Peruvian, Paraguayan and Colombian has performed well, but the Argentinians seem to be the exception to the rule.

It's almost as if the "Latin" style player doesn't work. More Swedes have played than Spaniards, more Norwegians than Italians.

And therefore maybe it isn't a surprise that Brazilians have prospered in Spain and Italy, Portugal too for that matter. Strange because Italy in particular is known as a very tactical league where you would think the Brazilians wouldn't work, but they do.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I honestly don't know.

This struck me as the National Press has been falling all over themselves with Robinho exit stories. Lots of silly stuff to do with pay cuts, Santos, maybe Benfica, Robinho 90% certain that he is gone, Mancini wanting him to say. All of it speculation and as far as I can see none of it fact. But one thing did catch my attention and that was a report that City wanted the right of first refusal on two up and coming Santos players, Neymar and Paulo Henrique.

I have no idea of the validity of such a report but given the lack of success of Brazilian players in the Premier League it’s maybe not as big a deal as you might think. Even if Neymar was once dubbed the "New Pele." Who knows, maybe Pele wouldn't have worked out in the Premier League either...

Comments

Posted by Noah Wexler on 01/26/2010

The problem I think is simply physicality. In my opinion Latin players tend to exhibit quickness, excellent vision, and a tendency to take one to many touches. I think this can be traced back to the framework within which these players first experienced and learned the game. From an early age style was a big part of the game for them which made it fun to both play and watch. In contrast for English players the sport is extremely competitive from an early age (similar to American football here in the states) and strength and conditioning are highly emphasized. When the results of these contrasting factors emerge within a single player you find not only serviceable players but players that stand out as exceptional talent. Looking at the current Brazilian players in the EPL I find only two individuals, Denilson and Anderson, who have these qualities. Denilson I feel is an excellent player and Anderson may blossom into quality player overtime.

Posted by Justin on 01/26/2010

"The Beautiful Game" did not exactly come from the play in England. Robinho is tiny player that gets pushed off the ball and frustrated with play in the EPL. he is taken out of games mentally. The physicallity of the game is way too much for a player like him to compete if his mental approach isn't similar. he is a talent, but may not flourish in England. Each player is different, but tendancies are that the "latin" player won't succeed.

Posted by chris on 01/26/2010

A lot of the stories in the press play up the fact that Brazilians don't work out in the Premiere league, and mostly, posters will come in with a rehash of familiar stereotypes. i.e. they are lazy, can't stand the physicality, etc. etc.

But hear this - Robinho himself made a comment a few days ago to the effect that "managers devise a system and expect players to fit into it" - I think there is something to this (although this may be a whole separate set of stereotypes). In England, maybe it is the case that managers would like players to fit their system, play in a certain way, rather than molding the tactics of the team around the attributes of the players at their disposal. I daresay I think Mancini is tactically astute enough if given time, to get the best out of Robinho if the player is committed to the cause (and he has 170,000 a week to be committed). I do think that with Robi, and perhaps with some other latin players, a team would have to be built around them to succeed

Posted by Francisco Silva on 01/26/2010

I think it isn't about "latin players". It's about culture.
I'm a south american myself and I'm always paying close attention to the south americans playing in Europe.
Brazil is a very lagre country with more football fans than England and Germany combined that on some level don't care about european football, they live used to the idea that their national team is and will always be the best football team in the world and as such their players are also the best in the world, regardless of the the team they play at. This is somehow part of the players personality.
I think Robinho is a talent, but he's just not cut for the extreme competiton of european leagues, it's just too much work for him. He could be a star in Brazil and make a lot of money with much less effort.
Kaka for example isn't a physical player but you can just see in his body language that he's willing to give his best every single day. I'm pretty sure he will succeed in England or any league.........

Posted by Francisco Silva on 01/26/2010

...also, see the personal choices of Romario, one of the best strikers in the 90s, he could have played in Europe longer than he did, but why bother, he can be a football hero in Brazil and have the lifestyle that he wanted.
Tevez, Mascherano, Anderson, Juninho, they have one thing in common, they are hard workers and that is why they succeed. Remember Robinho was a flop in Madrid and that's why they decided to sell him.
Robinho won't succeed in England because he doesn't want to make the effort, he doesn't want to take the hard tacles, the daily training sessions and the harsh weather so the best solution is to go back to sunny Brazil and be a hero over there where it matters to him because of his background and culture.

Posted by W on 01/27/2010

Read Soccernomics...your answers await.

Posted by sispiiano on 01/27/2010

i think i will give francisco silva a very good score a 100% for speaking the truth. Robinho is very lazy and should be sent back like Adriano that doesnt like to work hard, shame on them after so much hype from their fans.booo

Posted by JoeUSA on 01/27/2010

Gilberto Silva was a big player for Arsenal for a few years and contributor for a long time... not to mention Denilson, not necessarily stars, but consistent performers.

Wallace Reply Yes, consistent, good even, but not stars.

Posted by Luis on 01/27/2010

Good players in Brazil are so spoiled. When they have to leave paradise, good food and beautiful women behind to attempt to integrate themselves to a culture 180 degrees in another direction, it does mentally affect their motivation. Those who are able to adapt faster have better chance to succeed. Juninho always had to work very hard in Brazil to reach his spot in the Brazilian national team. Robinho was given everything from the age of 16.

Posted by Pedro Thomé on 01/27/2010

The big problem is that the Brazilians who reach a level of recognition, like a Robinho, strive very little to satisfy the desires of the coaches. They think that only the skill can solve everything, at any time.

Posted by Jack_Bluemooner on 01/27/2010

I'm an ardent Man City fan and I agree with the article, I've seen Elano, Geovanni and Robinho make great starts to their premier league careers, only to fade away with time. Geovanni had a resurgence with Hull but has faded once more. I have to say though, I can't believe that you haven't mentioned the most successful Brazilian to reach these shores. Gilberto Silva played 6 seasons at Arsenal, was part of the legendary 'Invincebles' team and won a league winners medal as well as 2 FA Cups. 208 games and 23 goals says it all for the defensive midfielder who was basically there to replace Manuel Petit. And what a job he did. Silva wasn't a headline act, but he was definitely an unsung heroe, with out which Arsenal wouldn't of been able to win and play the way they did.

Wallace Reply Silva was good. But would you in any year that he played say that he was one of the best 10 players in the Premier League that year? You could with Juninho, I don't think you can with any other Brazilian. Elano, maybe, the first half of his first season but not even my favourite Brazilian for the whole season.

Posted by SaintFaria on 01/27/2010

This leads to another question: Why don't British players succeed anywhere else besides the Premier League?
I'm trying very hard to come up with an example of a Brit being a major name in another league but I can't. Beckham was far from being a "major" player in Madrid... McManaman in Madrid circa 1998? Also not major...

Wallace Reply Great question and just as valid as why do Brazilians fail in the Premier League. Two players come to mind, Kevin Keegan and his time at Hamburg and the late, great, gentle giant... John Charles at Juventus. The next tier down in terms of "success" would be folks like Liam Brady (yes from Eire, but also British Isles) at Juventus, Gary Lineker at Barcelona and even David Platt and his Italian adventures.

But great point.

Posted by Dezi on 01/27/2010

Same can be said of English players who ply their trade abroad they dont normaly succeed ,why because they are so used to the long ball system where you kick the ball in space and run at it while the brazilian play short snappy passes to open defenses as they are more tactical and technical aware.

Posted by Ali on 01/27/2010

I dont believe one can call Anderson or the Da Silva brothers in Manchester a failure. Actually some soith american players are failure given their prior rating before they come to england, but not all of them. Anderson was never a star before he came to united, and even now nobody can say he is a failure, though he still is yet to live up to hs full potential. The da silva nrthers, Rafael and Fabio have so far showed they could be somethign in football even thoguth they are still in their teen.

Wallace Reply I agree that Rafael and Fabio have excellent potential.

Posted by ahmad on 01/27/2010

i believe robinho would have made a better impact if he had opted for chelsea rather than man city.reason been, there are more established stars at chelsea than man city.farewell to anyway,hope he rediscovers his good form for his own good.

Wallace Reply I agree with you. Robinho is the finishing piece to a puzzle not the initial building block. Scolari said he would have won the League with Robinho and I'm inclined to believe him.

Posted by Patrick Koroma on 01/27/2010

For you to say that Gilberto was not a star player for arsenal is akin to say that Dunga was also not a star player for Brazil. Which will lead to the question what your definition of A STAR player?

Wallace Reply Silva was very good. Don't get me wrong. Just not one of the absolute best in his time in the Premier League. I'm not trying to minimize Silva's ability.

Posted by binho on 01/27/2010

RObinho is a class player..full stop. even when he plays bad he still does something special..hes not at his best..but if he can be at his best for a long period he will hands down be the best player in the world

Posted by Justin Smith on 01/27/2010

I think it's just because Brazilians are the worst footballers in the world. I have no idea how they won the World Cup, but I cannot think of one Brazilian player who is any good currently playing in Europe.

Wallace Reply Cesar - Inter, Alves - Barcelona, Kaka - Real Madrid, Fabiano - Sevilla, Luisao - Benfica, Ronaldinho - Milan just to name a few...

Posted by mulo on 01/27/2010

i dont consider my self premier league more superior than other European league, reality is that BPL is not nice to watch. physical is not everything, u should have quality, that is y most of Brazilian get best player of the year. y Brazil Rolando succeed in Italy? when he played there, was best n strongest league in a world.

Posted by C. Hefffff on 01/27/2010

If you look at some of G. Silva's stats with Arsenal he was a very very good player at times (03-04, run to Champs Lge final in '06), but got displaced by Flamini and the Gooner's youth drive.

I can see Luis Fabiano and, to a lesser extent, Adriano being good fits within the EPL given their physique and technical ability. But it would come down to mindset with both of them. L. Fabiano hasn't done much since Sevilla's hot start fizzled and his subsequent injury, and well Adriano loves booze & birds and is fragile mentally (like one Robinho). As a United supporter, i'm excited to see what those da silva lads can do once first team regulars, and I've been waiting for Anderson to step it up this season and the last. Alas, he might get the heave-ho if he doesn't sort his sh*t out this season

Wallace Reply I think that all we are doing is discussing whether Silva was great or merely really very good illustrates the point. At best we are going from one great Brazilian in the Premier League, Juninho, to two.

I happen to like the Da Silva twins. I think in a perfect world they should have gone on loan for a year to another Premier League team so that they could play every single game, but quality players at a young age.

Posted by Asif Hirji on 01/27/2010

Name a Brazilian World Cup winner, other than Kleberson and Juninho, who has played in the prem. Admittedly, its 3am where I am, but I can't think of any. Juninho succeeded, Kleberson didn't. WOuld Ronaldinho, Romario, Ronaldo etc have failed? Its all speculation but I doubt it. It seems to me that a better question might be why the top Brazilians avoid even coming to England in the first place. Very few Brazilians with established reputations that i can think of have done so.

Wallace Reply Silva is the other... But it's also a fair point.

Posted by Miguel Risco on 01/27/2010

It is very difficult to explain, but I believe it all comes down to style. Brazilians view themselves as Formula 1 drivers and the Premier League as NASCAR; the cars are faster and the crashes more spectacular in NASCAR, but that technical precision is lacking. The Premier League has had a spectacular decade, and has introduced a real science of physicality to the rest of Europe, but that final touch, that nutmeg, the "elastico", always seems to elude them. Barcelona vs Chelsea epitomizes the culture gap in mentality. Brazilians just choose one over the other!

Posted by Patrick Koroma on 01/27/2010

I think i have an answer. The reason might be the difference b/w how the Brazilians and English view the game. While the Brazilians prefer to play the beautiful game the English prefer the structural game - ie get stuck in(rubbish). Can you imagine what would have happened to Rolandhino if he had joined Man Utd. So simply put Brazilians avoid the prem. cus its kills their flair, a trait that makes them different from the rest of the world.

Ps Just cus the whole world watch the prem does not make it the best league in the world.

Posted by el BARBARO on 01/27/2010

I have 6 yrs. coaching experience and I'm from south america. it seems that most of you are premier league fans and expect the best players to go to the highest paying league but not the best league.

La Liga and serie A are the best leagues in Europe even thought serie A fell off since the scandal of 2006 and they have money problems I would rather play there.

If I'm a south american player going to play in europe why would I play somewhere where it's cold most of the time, the refs don't do there jobs and call tackles right. (BPL has the worst reffing I've ever seen, no safety for the skilled players. they protect the broots and stiffs, all backwards), the food and night life isn't like the mediteranian. and thats the reputation when players are asked where would they rather go.
The BPL is all about marketing and is overated. When there money issues catch up to them like it did to the serie A and La Liga everything will go back to normal,and the real best leagues will flourish again

Posted by el BARBARO on 01/27/2010

thank you miguel risco and patick koroma for agreeing with me

THE BPL IS NOT THE BEST LEAGUE.

why go somewhere where you'll get hurt faster and even though it's the best payed in the long run you'll make less money because you'll be hurt more often. players breakdown faster in cold weather and takes longer to warm up. I speak from experience.
it's horrible to see how players are thrown into games with just fifteen min. of warm up and then expect them not to get hurt, plus the reffs are hurrendous.
the other thing is that breathing cold air isn't good and it takes getting used to if have never played in freezing or very low temperatures. you also feel more pain in the cold when you get talked by a barbarian who doesn't know or appreciate good dribbling. example Pele was tackled in england 66 with sword footed players just because he couldn't be stopped.

As someone who use to play in the street alot I'd rather play in warmer weather. where I can enjoy playing el jogo bonito

Posted by el BARBARO on 01/27/2010

I almost forgot

the BPL has a really bad habit of taking players out of position. then you fans expect them not to struggle. examples....

Anderson was an offensive player in brazil AF makes him into a mixed midfielder.

robinho plays as a foward not a center foward just foward. and they put him to play as a left wing, last year he made 11 gols playing foward now they replaced him with the welsh player.
then you sit them on the bench for too long tike
the da silva brothers and expect them to play well, when they can't improve there on the bench.
personally Mr Wallace I'd rather see south americans playing beautifully than being sat down, or made into something they are not. thats' why brazilians don't like going to the BPL.

out of control playing style.
cold weather.
injuries.
reffs.
out of position.
and culture.

in the world cup you'll all see how english football is not the best. the lower paced better dribling teams will reach the semis.

Posted by George Rohan on 01/27/2010

I think that Brazilian Players are very selfish comparing with their Counterparts like Argentinians, Colombians and the rest of South Americans footballers when it comes to giving their 100% to their teams. Brazilian Players also don’t like adapting to the style of living in England due to language, Cultural, Weather and other factors. If they know that they are good enough to play in Italy or Spain, they will always prefer to play in those leagues because of close cultural relations they have with each other. I don’t believe that not succeeding in EPL is due to Physical attributes of the Game or style of Football. If that was the case, then you won’t see lots of Brazilian playing in other European, Asian and African leagues. English players not succeeding in other leagues, it’s a known fact that English players style of game is more physical than Tactical which make them only successful in their own country. Of course, except for few English players such as Gaza, Plat, Hoddle, Waddle

Posted by James on 01/27/2010

It's not a fair comment about "lack of success Brazilians in premier league"

First you need to do some stats: How many Brazilians played in EPL and what is the failure rate?

Secondly, Sarcastically comment about Pele in EPL is a new joke. (since 1st point was totally missed)

ROnaldo destroyed Manu in Cl03 and then Ronaldinho schooled Chelsea in CL05 and 06 were there to think! If we ignore the equation of

Juninho success + Robinho failure = neutral

Lastly, even the term "failure" and "success" are way too relative!

Posted by Gary on 01/27/2010

It amuses me, the comments on the EPL (NOT the BPL, it's not Britain children, Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, and most of Wales are not involved), that it's not the best in the world. Technically speaking, there's no argument, the contintental leagues (Spain, Italy, and to an extent, Germany) demonstrate a higher technicality. However, when it comes to entertainment value, the EPL is leagues ahead of the others. This is demonstrated in their ratings against other leagues (and some very good marketing).

Watching Brazilians play in England, it definitely is not only a culture clash, but an environmental one, and most definitely a social clash. I'm not clued up on Brazilian press, however it seems unlikely that football players are hounded like they are in England.

The Da Silva brothers, and Denilson from Arsenal are the most promising Brazilians. I raise questions over Tevez being "great", as, although his work ethic is high, quite often, the results of this ethic are lower.

Posted by Dwaine Harris on 01/27/2010

Actually, this year maybe the best English team to represent the World Cup due to latin influence. I've noticed that Capello insists that they play the ball on the ground instead of lobbing forward and heading over. He also frowns on the tough tackling, intimidating approach. He prefers that his team play an honest style with progressive play.

Based on the influence of English coaches (MLS and Challenger programs) who come to the US I would say that the English game is very basic - kick and run...whoever runs the fastest and is most physical wins...I also have my kids train with a Brazilian for Futsal and it's absolutely night and day. For her so-called English Coached Premier team the emphasis is push the ball forward (some parents actually say boot it)...But for the Brazilian team he allows them to factor in creative movement and fun...guess which one my child prefers?

Posted by Dwaine Harris on 01/27/2010

BPL = Barclays Premier League...Barclays is their sponsor.

Posted by Jenkins Bobb on 01/27/2010

all these comments you guys make about the BPL not being the best is untrue. It is well rounded. It doesn't have as much technicality as La Liga or as tactical as Italy but it has just enough of these attributes. it beats both of these leagues in pace of the game and physicality. Brazilians and la liga players need to learn that football is an all-rounder's game, it's not about dribbles and tricks and sunny street soccer. it is about adapting to any situation a football game brings at you and dealing with it. take ENGLAND'S ROONEY for example- can play any position at any time in any league and perform.

Posted by jim higgins on 01/27/2010

The truth is a mixture of things. Its that brazlians can be lazy and want it all and the way the english play the game. Personally i don't really get what the south americans who are commenting here are talking about when they say that la liga and serie a are better protected. Did you not hear what ronaldo recently said about laliga. They boot players more over there then in england so that argument is out the window. Just look at ronaldhinos career at barca. Two great seasons then it waso off to chubby himself up and spend his time at nightclubs and brothels. Fact is no european league is suited to brazilians or south americans. Sure spain may be more suited then england but still the cultural differences are too much for brazilians and they don't last long there either.

The brazilians that generally succeed in england are the ones prepared to work hard as well as have skill. The ones that fail are the ones like robinho who think everything should be handed to him on a plate.

Posted by jim higgins on 01/28/2010

(BPL has the worst reffing I've ever seen, no safety for the skilled players. they protect the broots and stiffs, all backwards), the food and night life isn't like the mediteranian. and thats the reputation when players are asked where would they rather go.

************

who cares about the food and the nightlife. Jez they are soccer players paid to play football not worry about stuffing their faces and going out at night. If you have enough money you can have a happy life in any country on earth. That excuse is so lame by south americans. Are you guys really that immature that you can't look beyond 'the food and the weather' jez and whats all this mularky about the weather in madrid and milan its freezing in the winter. The lauguage thing is something now i can understand because thats a practical thing that would affect you on a personal level but food and weather give me a break.

The other thing is the reffing analysis about the pl. Have you guys actually watched laliga?

Posted by The Jesus on 01/28/2010

haha.
well if the measure of how successful a brazilian is, is that he reaches the top 10 influential players, then how many swedes and NORWEGIANS have reached the top ten (which you compared them to)?
the fact is there has been many more swedes and norwegians than brazilians. I'd say theres been many more from any european country than brazilians. Some are good, some lazy the same as everywhere.
I don't know that this is a provable point either way.

Posted by William Rios on 01/28/2010

I'm afraid you've left out the exports from Ecuador to England. As far as I've seen and heard, Ecuadorian footballers are probably the most suitable South Americans for the English game.

It comes to my attention that small players such as Carlos Tevez, Denilson, and even Julio Arca have performed well in their respective EPL clubs, but a typical Ecuadorian footballer has the strength and build to compete well in England. Barring Burnley's Fernando Guerrero, you haven't covered the issue in full detail.

The style of football played in Ecuador is a step below other South American countries in technique, but a firm contender for one of the fittest national teams in the world.

Posted by John on 01/28/2010

Liverpool currently have 2 players from Brasil, Lucus Levia and Insua in their side and have not really made much of a success. The manager loves them but there are many supporters who appear to have a love/hate relationship with them.

Posted by John on 01/28/2010

Correction to my last post, I mentioned that Insua is from Brasi, but I now half convinced he is Argentinian. No doubt about Lucus tho,he captained the Brasil U21 last year.

Posted by dave on 01/28/2010

Silva was good. But would you in any year that he played say that he was one of the best 10 players in the Premier League that year?

MR. WALLACE,EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THERE IS A BIAS AGAINST DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDERS AND THAT NO DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER WOULD EVER WIN PLAYER OF THE YEAR, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE CALLED UNSUNG HEROES.

GILBERTO WAS THE BEST DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE AND THERE WOULD BE NO INVINCIBLES WITHOUT HIM.

Posted by dave on 01/28/2010

WHAT IS WITH THIS LAME STEREOTYPES OF SOUTH AMERICAN PLAYERS? THE MAIN REASON WHY BRAZILLIANS DON'T PLAY WELL IN THE EPL MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE COACHES TACTICS. For example Anderson is an attacking midfielder but when he got to the premier league, they suddenly made him a defensive midfielder. Robinho is a striker and they converted him to a winger.
Also, the writer of this blog does not have enough samples to base his judgement on because very few brazillians have played in the EPL. The Brazillian superstars (Kaka, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho) never play in the EPL, its the middle of the road guys that play in the EPL (Kleberson and co.) so this is not enough for the writer to base his entire conclusion on.

Mr. Wallace
The question you need to ask yourself is why are the best brazilian players not playing in the premier league. Juninho was just a bench player for Brazil and Anderson and Robinho are not starters. So judging from this pool is not exactly fair sir.

Posted by dave on 01/28/2010

"who cares about the food and the nightlife. Jez they are soccer players paid to play football not worry about stuffing their faces and going out at night. If you have enough money you can have a happy life in any country on earth"

Mr. Jim Higgins,
Would you rather live in South Florida or live in Idaho?

Posted by Linc SLC,UT on 01/28/2010

"For instance, on average Brazilians are the world's best players. Yet historically nglish clubs rarely buy them, because Brazilians don't speak English, don't like cold weather, and don't tend to understand the core traditions of English soccer, like drinking twenty pints of beer a night. Few Brazilians adjust easily to English soccer.
English clubs have traditionally bought Scandinavians instead. On average,Scandinavians are worse soccer players than Brazilians, but they are very familiar with English, cold weather, and twenty pints of beer. Sacandinavians adopted to England, and so the clubs bought them." Simon Kuper & Stefan Szymanski-"Soccernomics"
A little levity for this debate. Could another factor be that Argentina is a more Eurocentric nation than Brazil?

Posted by Chun Fye on 01/28/2010

By saying the English league is not as good as the Spanish and Italian league is not a fair comment. The results speak for themselves. There are more English team reaching the semi than Spanish or Italian team. There are certainly some qualities that brought them to that level. These qualities may not be recognised by everyone(those who admire technic or tactics?). I believe technic and tactics are relative. Would you say Raul is technically better than van Nistelroy? Yes and no. They are both great in different ways.

Posted by Leo on 01/28/2010

Again like others,Gilberto silva wasnt the fanciful type but he was one of the best in his position during his time here.Even becoming captain for a while at arsenal.If you disagree maybe you could help to name a few defensive mid during silva's time that is far better than him in his position?

Posted by Arijit on 01/28/2010

The reason I think is fairly simple. Brazilian 'star' players are generally those attacking midfielders who play behind two strikers and literally control the game. Tremendous vision, zippy passes, venomous long shots. And they don't need to rush back to the back line now and then.

Sadly for them, the PL doesn't have the tradition of the attacking midfielder. In England, midfielders must a near-perfect harmony of attacking and defensive prowess. So there you go.

As for forwards, I can't remember the last time a great Brazilian forward came to the PL. Robinho's star was already on the wane at Real, mind you. And yes, he is an out-and-out forward, not a winger-cum-forward.

Also, if competitiveness was an issue, I think England would be clear favourites against Brazil in the WC. Now why is that not the case? Hmm.

Posted by Daniel on 01/28/2010

Actually, the weather and the food play a huge part in morale. I am from Malaysia and chinese. We all know that Chinese people can really enjoy food. I went to work in a place more humid and with a slight difference in food taste. Waking up every day feeling the heat and sweat just saps your day and you hurry to the nearest air conditioned location.

When it comes to lunch/dinner, your day just gets worst when the thought of what you have to eat come along.

Every notice some tourist head for the Chinese restaurants, the McDonald's or the Fish and Chip store rather than enjoy the local exotic cuisine. It is all about food.

I think when we rate success, we think about the whopping league and club top scorer-20 assist-telepathic partnership,4 man beating-attacking player. It seems to me that the Brazilians who are succeeding in the EPL are more midfield holding tackling players. Gilberto Silva had a scary look when he was rushing to break up play with occasional brilliance in attack.

Posted by Jon H on 01/28/2010

I agree with "W" read soccernomics, Im reading it now and alot of the questions you propose are answered and a whole lot more

Posted by Nikhil on 01/28/2010

I think the reason why someone like Robinho isn't a success while Gilberto Silva did an admirable job is quite obvious. Despite both being Brazilians, their styles were polar opposites. English game is always about high pressure and pace. While Brazilian football is equally quick, it is the the individual who often exhibits pace as opposed to the team. Robinho is a player who is a dribbler. He likes the ball at his feet and is quick running with it. And in come the hatchet men and he is easily dispossessed. English football is all about spraying the ball around without keeping it for long. And Gilberto Silva excelled at this. And hence the difference in the success curves of both players.

Posted by el BARBARO on 01/28/2010

to MR. higgins if u were a player and u wanted a long lasting successful career where would u rather play in a league where the game is called fare for big and small teams and the skilled player is protected or where you'll have a short distinguished run, cold, and limping. I'd rather be in f1 than NASCAR. IF the MLS are to succeed please hire argentinian and brazilian coaches. no english goons. anyone can run and shoot. control is the hardest to acheive!!!

Posted by el BARBARO on 01/28/2010

I've been watching the RAI channel since the early nineties back then SERIE A was called the beautiful league. now LA LIGA is the best and prettiest to watch.

Raise ur hands if u like to watch beautiful football. The hardest way to play it.

Posted by el BARBARO on 01/28/2010

whats harder to defend speed and power or skilled dribbling?
that is the question?

don't know bout inter vs chelsea, but
can't wait till ac beat man u.

Posted by Raphael on 01/28/2010

I am Brazilian, and I do actually think it may be a cultural difference. England is much more foreign to Brazilians than Italy, Spain, Portugal... it's a whole new philosophy that the British have that we may not get. Well, I'd say it's cultural difference + physicality. I won't go into details 'cause other people here have already done so. But it's basically that. I agree with you about Neymar. He's amazing, I watched a match last night, he scored 2 goals out of Santos's 5 on a 5x0 win, plus he gave great passes, and played very well in general. But being so young, it might be hard for him to get used to England, in fact the PL might ruin him. Robinho was already suffering at Real Madrid without much playing time, so Neymar shouldn't go to Barca or Real either. He should either wait a little longer at Santos or move to a smaller team like Sevilla, or something like that, to grow there.

Posted by Raphael again on 01/28/2010

jim higgins, the winter in Madrid is as cold as the winter in São Paulo, and warmer than the winter in Porto Alegre, for example. So, your theory ends there. Well, I don't know much about Milan, But I'm guessing it's a little colder than Madrid, so not much difference. In England it's 0 or lower, and THAT we are not used to.

And Linc, Argentina is a smaller country than Brazil. Much smaller. At some point it had a lot of Northern Europeans going there, lots of Germans after WW2 as well, and so on, because it is colder than Brazil, it snows and all that. So maybe they are more inclined to the English style because of that. Brazil has also had many immigrants from Germany (and others) at some point, but mostly in Southern towns, and they're still outnumbered by the African, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian descendants. And only in southernmost parts of Brazil does it snow, and it's like on mountains and such. Argentina and Brazil are VERY different, despite some mutual ascendency.

Posted by Raphael third time on 01/28/2010

Just to finish my point in my last comment: Argentina and Brazil are VERY different, despite some mutual ancestors. People from Europe think that in South America it's ALL hot, sunny, and brown. It's NOT. Like I've already said, even in the Brazilian South there are some places that are as cold as Madrid or Milan in winter, and in the southernmost towns, high on the mountains, it even snows sometimes, but not at all like England and Northern European countries. Far from that. 10 degrees is São Paulo is super cold! But it's not like in Argentina. Argentina is much more European-like, has a lot more of snow (the country starts where the Brazilian south is ending!) and is smaller so the Northern European influence is stronger, more "focused". Plus many Northern European people chose Argentina over Brazil because of the similar conditions there. So that's why Argentines adapt much better, it's that simple. England is more alien to Brazilians than to Argentines.

Posted by J.A Lett on 01/28/2010

Wow! just wow, Brazilians or any naturally gifted player not born in Europe playing in England seems to suffer. In my country T&T or any South American nation, English managers would fail. Just food for thought. Its the system of play....

Posted by rockuhad on 01/28/2010

i think the reason exquisitely talented players like robinho will fail in epl is because class,beauty,instinct and talent arent as appreciated there.hardwork, averageness,dedication,muscularity etc
its a difference in approach to soccer.for instance,brazilian fans will want to win and do it in style.but to many europeans,a win is a win is a win.what im sayin is that it is harder to be a footballer in brazil than in europe.u hav to have talent,not just hard-running

Posted by masanga paul on 01/28/2010

Brazilians don't always succeed in EPL because their egos have always gotten the better of them. Take forexample Robinah,he is one hell of a player who thinks he is misplaced. I think money was the major reason he had to leave Real. He made a wrong choice to join ManC,when actually he would have flourished in Arsenal,Chelsea or even ManU. Please advise him join the monsieur wenger revoln to revitalise his career coz the lad has immense talent and his ball handling techniques are amazing

Posted by mbuma on 01/28/2010

i think brazilian player the love to play a beautiful football, in brazil there iz no hardtacles like in germany,EPL or Ital. Think about Ronald De lima back in the days. He succeed in the world football when play for Baca rather than when play for Inter.
Pls Robinho go in brazil where your skills will b recognized.

Posted by Shanth Shankar on 01/28/2010

Not sure I agree that Brazilians don't fit in the Premier League. They just don't fit in the squads of most teams there because of their style quotient. Probably the only team that Robinho would have fit in is Arsenal, because of their pass and move game which is basically the "Beautiful Football" advertised by Barcelona and other Spanish and South American clubs. So Manchester City was probably not the best place for him and at Arsenal, with Wenger and Fabregas he could have really carved out a niche for himself. And don't get me wrong I ain't an Arsenal fan, am a firm believer in SAF.

Posted by igor on 01/28/2010

I think there isn't only one correct answer. Brazilians have a different playing style, i agree, but it is also a fact that Robinho is the only high profile brazilian player ever to play in england (when I say "high profile" i mean romário, rivaldo, ronaldo, ronaldinho, kaka, adriano, bebeto, rai, leonardo, zico, socrates, falcão, rivelino, careca, junior etc etc etc)

Considering this, I think the overall question must be changed: why didn't robinho succeed in the BPL? And that question isn't that hard to answer....

Posted by Mr Seb on 01/28/2010

I think the current crop of players coming out of Brazil are not expirienced enough to adapt to the more physcal game of the EPL. Most of the players come to Europe half baked and are expected to play at the highest level. They are overrated by the Brazian press and when they get to Europe they find it difficult. They need to play more games in Brazil and when they come to Europe coaches need to be more patient with them.

Posted by igor on 01/28/2010

Someone said that they didn't know how we won the World Cup.I have to defend Brazil on this one. It is simple. Look at 2002. We ONLY had Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Roberto Carlos and Cafu in the squad. One of the best line-ups in history. There is your answer.

Posted by jim higgins on 01/28/2010

Mr. Jim Higgins,
Would you rather live in South Florida or live in Idaho?

****

i honestly wouldn't care where i lived as long as i made enough money. Sun is bad for the skin don't you know it ages it and causes cancer.

Anyways by the way the italian serie a is a joke of a league. Its in financial ruin. Non of the worlds best players play there anymore. Even the italian public doesn't show up for the matches and the stadiums remain half empty for most games. How you can serie a is better then the pl or even compare it on equal terms to la liga makes me wonder if you people watch soccer at all.

The fact is the best leagues in europe are the premiership followed by la liga. La liga is now a 2 horse race the way the premiership used to be and the premiership is the best to watch because its become a lot more compeditive with the introduction of man city liverpool slipping down the table and th and av coming into the frame.

La liga is just a two horse race between barca and real

Posted by Steve_O on 01/28/2010

I am South American, but live in the US, also I have been a referee for about 5 years... To whoever was talking about the reffs in England, I think that the refereeing in England is very solid... Howard Webb and Mark Clattenburg (sorry if I didn't spell it right)are world class ref's, along with a few others that are extremely good at what they do. I can't name a Spanish ref like that.. EPL refereeing is by far better than Spanish.

I think the reason why Brazilians don't succed has to do a lot with the style of play and how they coaches don't let them have their "freedom" in the pitch.

It is a very robust style of play.. It's all about holding your formation, not loosing your shape in the pitch, there's no room for a Dani Alves (just to name one)... A player that 50% of the time is out of position, and it's allowed to make those offensive runs coming from behind.

He would fail in England, is like having your greyhound in a cage.. South American players need that FREEDOM..

Posted by Francis on 01/28/2010

Robihno shouldn't be a reference to why Brazilian fail in premier league. I would rather advise premier laegue to adopt to a tactical and skillful pray rather than mechanical. Nowadays every thing is about technical abilities rather than mechanical,so Brazilians are better placed than the premier leagueprayers.

Posted by Kop-a-Feel on 01/28/2010

I think it comes down both physicality and pace, but I believe pace to be the far greater factor in why foreign players of "latin" football do not succeed in the premiership. One can look at Shevchenko who mastered the Italian game, but caught in the midst of the fast-paced English game, he found him self an inconsequential attacking force at best. Conversely, one can look at the was Torres has flourished in the Premier league. In Spain, Torres was seen as a player with limitless potential, but as soon as he left for England and adapted to the faster paced football (which served his style perfectly) Torres was, after one season, known as the best pure striker in the world. Simply, it is the pace, in addition to physicality which is why more Brazilian and secondly Italian players cannot cope with the tenacity of English football.

Posted by danielmedjo on 01/28/2010

I think some of he comments here fail to do justice to the talent of someone like Robinho. He made a mitake by deciding to join Man City. But, look at it from another point of view; actually no matter how things turn out in the end, City made a good deal. I believe a lot of world-class players are now there because Robinho led the way. If City end up in the top 4 this season, that will be not in small part thanks to the arrival of players like Tevez, Adebayor, Toure, and the like. Now these people will hardly have considered the move had Robinho not been there. True, Robinho is a bit lazy, but so are most very talented people. As to why Brazilians don't succeed in the EPL, well, all of the abovesaid is probably true....

Posted by Herson N on 01/28/2010

What about Gilberto? He gave it his all while at Arsenal. He was one of the best defensive midfielders in England. You definetly can't count him out.

Posted by Stevie G on 01/28/2010

Lucas Leiva is an example of a Brazilian in the EPL. What a solid player he is for Liverpool.......................................

Posted by JaBree on 01/28/2010

first off the prem is not by itself the best league in the world, it's the prem, la liga and seria a, all for different reasons.
brazilians don't succeed in britian (not just england) for a number of reason, language, culture, style of play. and for those who don't think things like culture, food, nightlife aren't important to a footballer are naive. you have to take into account that these things are important for the family to adapt to, if the fam doesn't settle, the player has a hard time settling.
the weather is a factor as well, it is hard adapting to the cold and hard to getting going, especially if you're not on the pitch from the start. it's hard to breath and it easier to get hurt and harder to recover. is it a coincodence that you hear about more muscular problems in england than on the continent.
there are many factors as to why brazilians don't seem to make it in england nor want to go there. and the problem is on both sides, it's not one a sided problem

Posted by joe mcging on 01/28/2010

brazilians like attacking with flair and in england no player is really capable of this only the forigners are,+ the weather does not help,its also said in spain;that when you give players like robinho and co big contracts they get lazy,however if you give them small contracts they don't feel loved they claim????

Posted by Panda on 01/28/2010

Like people have said before me I think its about the physicality and more importantly speed of the game. While in italy the game is also very physical and tactical, players have much more time on the ball, to make more touches, show flair and skill. Similarly in spain, portugal and almost every other league other than the EPL where the games are so fast paced its like watching a basketball game. In Italy you can see ronaldinho walking with the ball looking to pick a pass at times and Messi the same in spain.
As a man utd fan as dissapointed as I was that we didnt capture Ronaldinho when we were soooo close, it might have ruined his career or at least paused it like Veron or Forlan.

Posted by Seun on 01/28/2010

I do have a problem with the data used to arrive at this conclusion. Did the writer place side by side the numbers of those that have made significant impact and those that didn't? I did not see the name of Gilberto in the article and he was part of the "invincibles" at Arsenal. As well, Denilson is still very young but is doing very well at this point at Arsenal. We all know he is part of the future Brazil team. I believe Robinho is a lazy player with bad attitude and you can not succeed in any profession with those negative attributes. On the other hand, we can go on and on with the list of English, French, Italian players who did not suceed in the Premiership. We simply can not draw any conclusion based on country of origin...it is down to the individuals.

Posted by Jared on 01/28/2010

I don't believe it has anything to do with players of latin descent. It has to do with the physical aspect of the game. C.Ronaldo and Torres and Fabregas they all struggled at first in the EPL due to the physical style of play, but once they got used to it and adjusted each player has succeeded and better than any Englishman will in that league plain and simple. If Robinho wanted to put out the effort to be an good player in England he could. He was just used to being the best without having to make any effort while he was in Brazil. Hands down I think Brazil is the best team in the world they are the beautiful game. I think Robinho needs to go back to the Spanish league it caters to those types of players. He needs to get his talks back with Barcelona started up. And to what the one guy said up there about denilson being one of the only physical brazilians...what about dani alves

Posted by K John on 01/28/2010

the comments of Shanth Shankar 8 hours, 33 minutes ago i totally agree with.

ITS ALL TO DO WITH THE STYLE OF PLAY , Arsenal have a unique style in england similiar to Barca in Spain which suits technically gifted players

David Platt and Liam Brady were stars in Italy

John Aldrigde was profilic in Spain albeit towards the end of his career

As a Gunners supporter have to admit THAT W Rooney is truly world class holding Man U together with Scholes/Giggs 35 years with Man U in Total

Paul Mc Grath was the best centre half of the past 30 years, defence or midfield an absolute joy to watch and could not train !!!

Posted by Ken Small on 01/28/2010

i think Brazilians that played for Arsenal has done well Silva and Edu was outstanding player for them and denilson is doing well now. EPL is total different from what they used to and some of them are lazy to work into the system.

Posted by Asad on 01/28/2010

I love the Prem but i think refs need to draw a line between physicality and brutality which is what it comes too at times. And you know I think if robinho wasnt a lil crybaby and moron ppl might not have deemed such a flop as he did score 14 times in the league in his first season i imagine he was in the top 10 if not higher!

Posted by Pete on 01/28/2010

The weather, culture, food, personalities and lifestyle could be a defining clue on why. Argentina most resembles a Northern European attitude out of all Latin countries.

Posted by martin on 01/29/2010

Brazil & the UK are at opposite ends of the spectrum in both football & culture. Brazil is all about sun & fun. The UK is "Saturday's All Right For Fighting." The physicality of the English game is alien to the creativity that is inbred into Brazilians. On top of that, the oppressive climate & even more oppressive media make a very unhappy life for the typical Ipaneman. All they want is a good time &, both on & off the pitch, there is always someone in their face. This probably explains why Brits do not play elsewhere, too, being so driven by their native culture that when they go abroad & get a chance to relax, they lose focus (also, the food in most of the rest of the world gives us gas).

Argentines, on the other hand, are much more European than they are South American, culturally speaking. What other country on that continent even plays rugby, never mind being half decent at it? Their climate is far more temperate than Brazil's, as well. No surprise they do well here.

Posted by danglefeet on 01/29/2010

i think robinho suceeded in the premier league. he just doesnt want to be there haha. he's had remarkable runs last year!!

Posted by NH on 01/29/2010

If English football's style is indeed better, why has England not performed better than Brazil in Would Cups? Is that not a vindication of Brazil's superiority?
Theoretically, I am wondering how a BPL team with a reputed international manager and team composed entirely of high-quality Brazilians, Argentinians and Spaniards do against the Chelseas, ManUs and Liverpools ... given the World Cup experience, they should be winning

Posted by platwell Dindi on 01/29/2010

Robihno is a great player,only that he is abit slow and he is not doing what a striker is suppose to do at the monment.But he goes back to Brazil he is going sharpen his skills again and he will be inform again.Culture and weather,food are the contributing factor to Robihno not to be at his peak.

Posted by Boniface Tambwe on 01/29/2010

The question should be formulated as it follows: Why did Robinho fail in his second season in the EPL?

The EPL is not the best league in the World, it is simply well marketed because of the amount of money Sheiks and other American tycoons are spending.

La Liga, Bundesliga, Seria A offer much better tactical and technical entertainment and talented players like Robinho fair much better there. The EPL is the old English game of kick and rush or kick and run...This explains why the three lions haven't won the world cup since 1966!!!

Spain has refs such Undiano Mahenco, Mejuto Gonzalez, Carlos Klose that are as good as Howard Webb and Mr. Clattenberg.

I live in the states and i play football the way it is played on continental Europe but i enjoy watching the EPL and i am a big Man City fan since our dark days in the third devision of the English game.

The beautiful game is about control, pass, and movement and every now and then long balls only when needed...

Posted by sasha on 01/29/2010

too small, baddddddd attitude, grossly overpaid and pampered.
I am happy Chelsea did not latch on to this
spoilt boy

Wallace Reply Ironically I actually think Robinho would have worked at Chelsea with Scolari. He's the final piece to a puzzle rather than a foundation block.

Posted by Clydinho on 01/29/2010

Served City right to just decide to buy a player even though there was no fit. Robinho flourishes in a team where he has a license to score. That is what he brings to the game. But City, who do not have a quality left fullback, a shaky pair of centerbacks need their forwards to drop back to help defend. Now that City have Tevez, and Bellamy they no longer need 'Binho so they discard him.
But they should not have signed him in the first place. Robinho became a pawn, a victim. A statement to the world that City's Middle East billions will buy players. 'Binho was never going to succeed in City. He was just a showpiece.
Had he signed for Chelsea, things would have been different. Given the reliability of Ashley Cole, and the protective cover of essien/mikel, on top of the Terry/Carvalho/Alex umbrella, Robinho would definitely shine. Arjen Robben is just as purely offensive minded as robinho, and he was such a hit in Chelsea (he got injured a lot though, which led to his demise).

Oh well.... I guess Madrid got the last laugh, selling Robinho to a club he was destined to fail and using the money they received to buy Xabi Alonso... Good & Shrewd piece of business there

Posted by paul on 01/29/2010

i think that the pressures of tags such as "most expensive player in the clubs history" have contributed to his failure. he came to epl with dreams of big pay days and a bulging trophy cabinet, then why man city? To be the biggest player at the club i presume? a big name player at an average club will rarely succeed, especially when they lack a work ethic! the likes of ronaldinho,roberto carlos, kaka and ronaldo could have had successful epl careers WITH THE RIGHT CLUB, a club deemed bigger than the player themselves, with players of similar or greater ability. Confidence plays a big part too, the pressure of his price tag and the expectations have left him a shadow of the man who arrived in manchester. however a more confident player in a better team such as ronaldo at man u earned himself a massive price tag and he will fulfill that tag, and then torres at liverpool, some would say did enough last season to pay back the massive fee they paid for him, and both "latin" players too!

Posted by Denton on 01/29/2010

I honestly do not want robinho to leave, there is a time in every ones life that they go through a phase and I think that this is what he is experiencing now. He is a young and a great player and if he gets the right guidance I am sure that he will do well in the English Premier League, regardless of what the trend is about Brazilians in England. If I were his manager I would try to do everything possible to keep him because players like that you just don't give up on.

Posted by Dave on 01/29/2010

I can think of another successful Brazilian who played for many seasons in the premier league. His name is Gilberto Silva.. but yet again .. he played at arsenal who played 'the beautiful football'.

Posted by Bart on 01/29/2010

"NH 10 hours, 14 minutes ago

If English football's style is indeed better, why has England not performed better than Brazil in Would Cups? Is that not a vindication of Brazil's superiority? "

Well, no. It just means that Brazil has a much larger population. And, take away the Pele years, they havent been any better than the other five great footballing nations.

Posted by shadow, ghana on 01/29/2010

in all your submissions, u mentioned arsenal as the only team that brazilians hav succeeded. b'cos they the only one that play the beautiful game and not that awful thing u call football in ingland.CR9 won u the best player award b'cos he's been the best thing ever to hav happend to english football and a portuguese!what happend to man.u in the final of the CL last season? it was just common sense rather than physicality than won barca the cup.Enland will 4ever live in the shadows of brazil from youth to the womens team.We do not vote for players to be world bests b'cos they are stronger or can run faster tan their opppnents, otherwise we'l advice all enlish players to compete with manny pacqiuo or usain bolt for honours.

Posted by shadow on 01/29/2010

someone said dinho played for a short time and fizzled out but honestly, can any brit be compared with him even if he played the entire time of his life?I bet u if any brit shl go to brazil for a justify your- inclusion, he will not make it. No brit player can be compared to kaka who is even not at his best.How many times hasnt these brazilian club beaten these european clubs in the world club tournaments? england born coaches are incompetent and that explains why the top four teams are coached by foreigners. Individual briliance and creativity is the hallmark of today's game and not team work even when the whole team is struglling and thats where zizou, de lima ronaldo, figo, kaka, cr9, messi, rivaldo, dinho, oppon weah and co., come to mind. Any english player past or present in this class?They are the best cos coaches allowed them to bring what they had as talent to the pitch and not some strict insructions from some incopetent coaches.HALA BRAZIL.

Posted by DIEGO on 02/03/2010

i think robihno should not go back to mancity they dont have a system of play.no creativity there is not one midfielder to give him ball,i agree that arsenal would be a better choice.whats this about him being lazy only in the epl coaches want fords to chase back to defend.RObiho is a world class player mancity not a world class team,mancini direspected him when he brouht him on as a sub only to take him off that not how you get the best from your player

Posted by Josh on 02/11/2010

style and culture. People who say brazilians don't make it in the EPL because of laziness are crazy. Robinho could easily make it, but is played out of position and gets no opportunities to create. Mancini put to defensive midfielders out there with two fast wingers and two strikers. There is no place for robinho in that. He is not a cdm or winger. He is a second striker and thrives at the national level and in brazil because the ball and game is more free flowing. Why do you think Ronaldo left Man u? He wanted freedom! The culture is huge too. All I see from you is they party and are lazy! BIG DEAL! Athletes and celebs throw parties! They drink! They go out! Just because you(everyone who doesn't understand the culture of a celeb) don't go out a lot doesn't mean you can blame that on their poor play. EPL is a strict play your position game. No freedom etc...

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